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Old 10-04-2015, 07:16 PM   #1501
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Croissant Seven said... View Post
We are purposely conditioned to not care when inner city black folks kill each other. What is strange is how we're now being conditioned to focus on the murderers in mass shootings, rather than the victims or the actual problem at hand.

Exposure to information is a carefully crafted science, designed to increase attention to maximize profits. So call me a conspiracy nut, but I dont think it is a stretch to think that the men who profit from folks staring at their screens nonstop would also be in $ilent support of policies that work counter to solving the problem of mass shootings.

Back to my beer now, I guess.
I don't agree with this. I think there are a lot of helpless people caught up in gangs/gang violence. I'm not conditioned to not care. I'm conditioned that our leadership isn't willing to do anything about it.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:44 PM   #1502
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No one related to the topic of this thread is in the position to do anything meaningful about this issue. This is like debating abortion. Ironic though.

A friend of mine suggested RFID embedded gun laws and tags for current arms. Sensors in public locations at entries and exits...or some such.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:06 PM   #1503
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No one related to the topic of this thread is in the position to do anything meaningful about this issue.
I believe the solution to the gun problem in the US will occur as a "Constitutional Moment" as described by Bruce Ackerman. If I am right, this thread is exactly what will contribute to that moment.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:41 PM   #1504
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I believe the solution to the gun problem in the US will occur as a "Constitutional Moment" as described by Bruce Ackerman. If I am right, this thread is exactly what will contribute to that moment.
If only power and contracts came from this. Im doubting this event will be that frame work.

Much like voting...
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:49 PM   #1505
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Unfortunately you are wrong.
Who, specifically, is saying "we gotta ban guns"? I haven't heard a single person saying that, even private individuals, much less public figures. All I have heard is "let's talk about additional gun regulations."

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Again, completely wrong. A car can easily be used as a weapon and often is. And regardless of the intent of the object, it is what the person operating it makes it. A gun or a car are only as deadly as the person operating them.
I'm wrong that a car is designed with the primary purpose of being an appliance and a gun is designed with the primary purpose of being a weapon?

A cooler full of coor's lights can be used as a weapon, or just the coor's lights, or even the cooler of just melted ice. In the room I am in alone, there are at least 12 objects that could be and have been used to kill people. Should we start regulating anything that is occasionally used as a weapon?

From where I sit, it sounds like you're saying that a chain saw and a land mine are equally weapon-y, which is so absurd I don't even know where to begin.

For homicide by firearm to occur, it takes a person AND a gun. It's far quicker, easier, and "cleaner" to kill someone with a gun that with a lamp cord or a broadsword or a machete. Studies imply that a good proportion of gun deaths happen because there was an easy means to do it (i.e., the gun), and that many of those would not have happened if it had to be by more difficult means. Hell, there's got to be a good number where the perpetrator would not even have had the physical strength to commit homicide if not for the gun. So, no, it is not the person operating the weapon; it is the person operating the weapon plus the ability granted by that weapon. To suggest otherwise is naive.

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Disagree completely and utterly. The "war on drugs" has done nothing but increase our prison population and criminalizing something is the quickest way to get organized crime like gangs involved in the first p!ace. Where do they make their money from?
First you said "So why don't we outlaw drugs and gangs?" and now you're talking about the war on drugs. Those are three different sets of laws. Which are we talking about, so I can be clear in my reply?

In the meantime, I'll address outlawing gangs.

Humans respond to incentive, be it economic (more/less money, being fined, going to jail and losing your house, etc.), social (I don't want you to see me doing something wrong), and moral (I don't want to do anything I consider wrong).

For you or me, we have a lot to lose by joining a gang--very strong incentives in all three categories. If you're a young black man in a big city, the incentives are much weaker. You didn't have a house, money, or a good job to begin with, being a drug gang boss may actually be your most lucrative career option, your peers may want you to join a gang or threaten violence if you don't, and you may see gangs all around you and not see a problem with it.

For our young black man, a law doesn't mean anything if it doesn't actually create any incentives. Put another way, outlawing gangs will only be effective in decreasing gangs and gang violence if the laws are effectively enforced. Words on paper won't do anything, the actions that those words enable are what make a difference--so those actions would need to be taken. (Better yet, we could actually try to change the other incentives for this man, but we're talking about laws so I'll stick to that.)

Gang enforcement in big cities has often been carried out poorly or not at all, so of course it didn't work. In places where a large effort has been put into enforcing anti-gang laws, on the other hand, it has been very effective. Portland is a good example: it has almost zero gang-related homicides, even though we're a 2 or 3 day drive from the Mexican border. In the 70's, 80's, and continuing today, the Portland Police have put a lot of resources into controlling gangs.

So, we're both correct: gang laws do nothing, but enforcement of gang laws does a lot.

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Until you address the disease the rest doesn't mean shit. All it does is make people feel good about " doing something".
Making it more difficult for people who are mentally ill to commit homicide hardly seems like it wouldn't "mean shit." It would, you know, make it more difficult to commit homicide, which means that some of the homicides committed by the mentally ill would not happen, because it was more difficult to commit them.

Side note, it seems that part of the mental illness problem in the United States is the inability to empathize with, listen to, or understand others while polarizing everything one way or the other. Nothing is black and white, least of all gun control, homicide, and mental illness. The fact that even the suggestion of additional weapons regulations sends millions of people into a hysterical frenzy is perhaps an even greater indication of societal mental illness than the regularly occurring mass murders. (It makes me sick with disgust that that last sentence is something able to be said truthfully.)

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Old 10-04-2015, 08:52 PM   #1506
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The fact that even the suggestion of additional weapons regulations sends millions of people into a hysterical frenzy is perhaps an even greater indication of societal mental illness than the regularly occurring mass murders.
Saved your best point for last.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:49 PM   #1507
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A New Way to Tackle Gun Deaths

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In America, more preschoolers are shot dead each year (82 in 2013) than police officers are in the line of duty (27 in 2013), according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:18 AM   #1508
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I haven't read all of this yet, let alone given it close scrutiny, but just to park an op-ed from Justice Stevens:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...245_story.html



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Old 10-05-2015, 12:39 AM   #1509
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I can't find anything in that article to disagree with. It does bring up a few logistical problems, but nothing that couldn't be àddressed.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:43 AM   #1510
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So, we're both correct: gang laws do nothing, but enforcement of gang laws does a lot.

.)
I'll address the rest of your post when I have time but this stands out.

I could say the exact same thing about gun laws. And laws regarding violent crime.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:33 AM   #1511
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I'll address the rest of your post when I have time but this stands out.

I could say the exact same thing about gun laws. And laws regarding violent crime.
Of course, one would need a set of useful gun laws before they can be enforced.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:44 AM   #1512
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5. It's interesting the number of people who don't live in the US who like to get into our business. You don't understand our culture and think it's awful. Count your blessings you don't live in America. I count my blessings that I do.

That is such a cheap and cliché card to play.

I lived in your country for over six years. In Texas no less, many of my close friends are gun nuts. Trust me, this part of your culture is not that complex or difficult to grasp. It gets exported plenty to the rest of the world, and anyone who puts a little time in researching it can get a very good idea.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:21 AM   #1513
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That is such a cheap and cliché card to play.

I lived in your country for over six years. In Texas no less, many of my close friends are gun nuts. Trust me, this part of your culture is not that complex or difficult to grasp. It gets exported plenty to the rest of the world, and anyone who puts a little time in researching it can get a very good idea.
That isn't compelling. I don't tell you how the women in Germany should shave their armpits.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:35 AM   #1514
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Does anyone else read ThudMaker's posts in Karl Pilkington's voice?
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I have no idea what 99 percent of the gobbledygook that you just posted means
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:04 AM   #1515
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I'll address the rest of your post when I have time but this stands out.

I could say the exact same thing about gun laws. And laws regarding violent crime.
That was my point.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:06 AM   #1516
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That isn't compelling. I don't tell you how the women in Germany should shave their armpits.


Yes, Germany is well known for its women who don't shave their armpits.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:20 AM   #1517
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:31 AM   #1518
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That isn't compelling. I don't tell you how the women in Germany should shave their armpits.
Very well. But just because you can't even get your basic stereotypes right, don't assume that everyone else in the world is as clueless about foreign cultures as you appear to be.

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Old 10-05-2015, 09:44 AM   #1519
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The way you deal with gangs is to treat them as continuing criminal organizations subject to RICO laws. Then the leaders get 20 years. It is expensive to defend and very effective at eliminating effective gang leadership.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:48 AM   #1520
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The way you deal with gangs is to treat them as continuing criminal organizations subject to RICO laws. Then the leaders get 20 years. It is expensive to defend and very effective at eliminating effective gang leadership.

I'm not a gang expert, but my intuition tells me this: being at the bottom rung in a gang is risky business. You're the one standing on the street corner. In some areas, your annual risk of death while just standing on the street is approaching 20%. People run that risk not because they're paid well, but because the leaders are paid well and they want a shot at being a leader.

If someone has already endured years watching their friends die, likely being in and out of prison several times, and putting their own life on the line every day, I can't imagine that 20 years in prison after reaching the top would seem that big of a disincentive. Even if it was, gang leaders don't stop being gang leaders because they got locked up.

Perhaps a better way to deal with gangs is to address some of the things that provide so little opportunity to their members in the first place. Get rid of systemic cultural racism, create a positive social incentive structure for academic achievement by young black men and women, and provide extensive social programs and full scholarships to poor minority children with a single parent

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Old 10-05-2015, 09:52 AM   #1521
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An even better way to deal with them is to address systemic cultural racism, create a positive social incentive structure for academic achievement by young black men and women, and provide extensive social programs and full scholarships to poor minority children with a single parent.
So you are saying you don't care as much about the future of those in Mexican gangs? racist!
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:02 AM   #1522
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So you are saying you don't care as much about the future of those in Mexican gangs? racist!
In my understanding, and this is quite a generalized statement, young and poor urban blacks in the United States tend discourage or berate academic achievement among their peers: so-called "acting white". Roland G. Fryer has a paper on it. Hispanic, Asian, and other minority cultures don't seem to do the same (though that certainly doesn't mean life is easy for them).
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:14 AM   #1523
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The way you deal with gangs is to treat them as continuing criminal organizations subject to RICO laws. Then the leaders get 20 years. It is expensive to defend and very effective at eliminating effective gang leadership.
Lol I love "common sense" approaches to things.

OK, so let's go round up all of the gang leaders this week, beat them stupid with RICO, and make them go away. While we're at it, might as well take their kids and put them away, as well; since the gang leader isn't going to be feeding them, we might as well institutionalize them. Hell, let's just sterilize them, that will nip the generational poverty problem in the bud.

OK, so let's just say we incarcerate 10,000 gang leaders. How many folks does that leave us in desperate, crushing poverty in our inner cities? Let's use Chicago as an example. On the south side, infamous for both gang activity and poverty, census data indicates that there are 752,496 residents, of which 93% are black. (And let's be real, here. You're talking about black people so I'm going with that). So roughly 700,000 black people on Chicago's south side. Let's use a very conservative number to estimate the number of those folks below the poverty line...say, 40%. That would be roughly 280,000 people living in poverty in just half of one city.

Still think your RICO solution is the answer to the gang problem? If you do, you are absolutely clueless about gangs, poverty, inner city life, and hopelessness. The only way your viewpoint would hold up in your mind if I took you for an afternoon drive through these neighborhoods would be if you were bitterly clinging to your fantasy notions about bootstraps and racism.

Seriously. I came from a poor background in Denver, and when I first experienced the south side in Chicago, it took me a full day to wrap my head around how wrong I was about a lot of things. People have asked me why I became a shitlib when I moved to Chicago, and that's why. I could no longer put my hands over my ears and go "lalalalalalala" with my eyes clamped shut.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:25 AM   #1524
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Hell, let's just sterilize them, that will nip the generational poverty problem in the bud.
Now you're talking!
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:28 AM   #1525
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Lol I love "common sense" approaches to things.

OK, so let's go round up all of the gang leaders this week, beat them stupid with RICO, and make them go away. While we're at it, might as well take their kids and put them away, as well; since the gang leader isn't going to be feeding them, we might as well institutionalize them. Hell, let's just sterilize them, that will nip the generational poverty problem in the bud.

OK, so let's just say we incarcerate 10,000 gang leaders. How many folks does that leave us in desperate, crushing poverty in our inner cities? Let's use Chicago as an example. On the south side, infamous for both gang activity and poverty, census data indicates that there are 752,496 residents, of which 93% are black. (And let's be real, here. You're talking about black people so I'm going with that). So roughly 700,000 black people on Chicago's south side. Let's use a very conservative number to estimate the number of those folks below the poverty line...say, 40%. That would be roughly 280,000 people living in poverty in just half of one city.

Still think your RICO solution is the answer to the gang problem? If you do, you are absolutely clueless about gangs, poverty, inner city life, and hopelessness. The only way your viewpoint would hold up in your mind if I took you for an afternoon drive through these neighborhoods would be if you were bitterly clinging to your fantasy notions about bootstraps and racism.

Seriously. I came from a poor background in Denver, and when I first experienced the south side in Chicago, it took me a full day to wrap my head around how wrong I was about a lot of things. People have asked me why I became a shitlib when I moved to Chicago, and that's why. I could no longer put my hands over my ears and go "lalalalalalala" with my eyes clamped shut.
Beyond that, if they take the gang leaders away, two more shall take their place. Hail Hydra!
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:32 AM   #1526
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Beyond that, if they take the gang leaders away, two more shall take their place. Hail Hydra!
I think it would make a good documentary, to take guys like JtD, drop them off in the middle of the south side at 7am, and tell them that I'll give them $1000 cash if they can find a business that is hiring full time employees by the end of the day, without using a car. They get the unbelievable advantage of being white and well-educated, and I still don't think they could do it.

Hell, I'll give them another $1000 as a bonus if they can find a full time employer who offers health benefits.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:35 AM   #1527
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I think it would make a good documentary, to take guys like JtD, drop them off in the middle of the south side at 7am, and tell them that I'll give them $1000 cash if they can find a business that is hiring full time employees by the end of the day, without using a car. They get the unbelievable advantage of being white and well-educated, and I still don't think they could do it.

Hell, I'll give them another $1000 as a bonus if they can find a full time employer who offers health benefits.
Realistically, you'd also have to pay the gangs to ensure no one got murdered.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:38 AM   #1528
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In my understanding, and this is quite a generalized statement, young and poor urban blacks in the United States tend discourage or berate academic achievement among their peers: so-called "acting white". Roland G. Fryer has a paper on it. Hispanic, Asian, and other minority cultures don't seem to do the same (though that certainly doesn't mean life is easy for them).
tl;dr....racist
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:39 AM   #1529
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You guys ROFL at RICO but it is being used with very good effect around the country because it works. Naysayers, come up with ANY other strategy that works with gangs.

We no longer go to sleep to the sound of machine gun fire in our streets or have bullets flying in our windows and it sure wasn't passing more gun control that changed things. It was getting gang leadership off the streets,
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:40 AM   #1530
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Naysayers, come up with ANY other strategy that works with gangs.
Provide opportunities and eliminate obstacles for poor minority children from single parent families.
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