Ask a meathead

[VikingWarlord]

Ok, what the hell. Since people here have been trying to learn about diet, nutrition, cardiovascular exercise, resistance training, and general fitness (and myself and takeout always end up answering the questions anyway), let 'em rip.

I'm (obviously) not a doctor, neither am I any sort of an expert, but I've learned a lot over the last few years and am more than happy to share in order to help people improve their own lives.

[Zamfir]

You and takeout might cut and paste some of the quoted questions and replies you given in past threads, because you guys have given some great responses, and it's worth storing here, IMO.

[mlwarriner]

What is a reasonable overall exercise time for someone starting to do interval training? And do I really need an HRM to do it, or can I just go on "perceived exertion"?

[VikingWarlord]

That's a tricky question to answer without more information.

First, what sort of interval training are you doing? If you're following a HIIT protocol, you want less time with greater intensity for that portion, then a moderately paced walk/spinout to burn off those FFAs. I don't think that time on task for cardio shouldn't be more than 35-40 minutes.

A "normal" HIIT protocol would be something like a 30s:60s, 20s:40s, etc work:rest ratio. There are more extreme versions like Tabata (20:10 w:r) and 8 Seconds of Doom (8:12 w:r). The shorter the work intervals, the harder you have to push and the more of them you have to do.

To start, you'd probably want to take one of the longer interval periods and do it for about 15 minutes, then get on a bike or a treadmill and spin or walk it out for about another 15. As they get easier, you push yourself harder and eventually start decreasing the interval periods.

Tabata intervals are repeated 8 times, taking you to a 4 minute total workout, and then you'd be getting on a treadmill/bike/whatever and doing moderate steady state for about 16 minutes, maybe a little longer if you feel like...but you won't.

I do the 8 Seconds of Doom for 3 minutes on a bike, then spin it down until I hit the 20 minute total mark. That allows me to get through 9 intervals. I'll be adding intervals soon though.

I don't use a HRM at all but that's because I've been training long enough to be able to listen to what my body tells me...so it's mostly what you feel comfortable with.

I tried to cover most of the possibilities here with examples, but if you need to know anything else, just let it fly.

[Zamfir]

Hm. As you know, I've been trying to do HIIT and SS cardio when I'm reasonably healthy (heh...).

When I get down to our dinky little gym-let, I've been doing about 19 min (-2 min. warmup and cool down on either end) on the incline walker/hill climber that looks like a relative of a stair master but ain't so vertical.

Its interval function mode runs about 30 seconds at higher resistance, spaced around a minute of lower resistance. I've been breaking that up into:

1. highest intensity for the 30 seconds when the machine's at higher resistance

2. 20 second slower semi-cool down at lower resistance

3. followed by 20 seconds medium to medium high intensity (still at lower resistance). I don't hang onto the bars like when I'm pushing at highest intensity mode, but I get the heart pumping significantly harder.

4. then 20 second semi-cool down

5. before getting back to 30 seconds at highest intensity and highest resistance. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I either keep doing that machine on a cardio mode at a steady pace, trying to emulate SS cardio while it gradually boosts and lowers intensity in one big hump. Or I hop on a treadmill and run about 20 minutes because the damn things have no way to adjust the time.

Given my schedule, I only get to do this 1-2x a week. Oh, and I do token upper body isometric stuff (upright bench, military press, horizontal bicep/lat pulls) on machines (no free weights around) before I do the HIIT.

Is this wise? :D

[VikingWarlord]

Wow, I forgot about this. Not a lot of activity in here. Must have answered everyone's questions already.

Since I can't explain it better than this, read this article:

http://builtblog.wikidbody.com/2007/06/11/how-to-do-cardio-if-you-must/

[sheepdog]

ok...I will try to keep this as simple as I can

34 (35 this year)
225 lbs.
fairly sedentary lifestyle

I previously worked out and lost 50+ lbs, but got lazy. Apparently it is a weird bonus to have someone at home that makes you want to stay away.

Do I need to get a physical before starting a workout program? I am not old, nor am I a spring chicken anymore. My main goal is cardio and fat loss. I wouldn't mind adding the muscle I had 1-2 years ago, but not sure how far beyond that I want to go. I think I might have injured myself doing some of the exercises before (recurrent back trouble).

I do weight equipment at home, but no cardio other than my bicycle. I have a gym one street over from my job.

Recommendations on where to (re)start? I was sort of forrest gumping my way through it last time. 3-4x per week is a doable goal for me. Less than that makes it to easy to skip. More than that and I feel like I am pushing myself a bit more than necessary for my goals.

Thanks


(my apologies for ignoring the thread :D )

[VikingWarlord]

First, a few questions.

Do you have any idea of your bodyfat %?

What sort of equipment is it you have access to at home?

What is the goal you're actually looking to hit?

Training 3-4x weekly is pretty normal, and you should be able to get a good session in that takes 75 minutes or less if you keep a good pace.

[sheepdog]

First, a few questions.

Do you have any idea of your bodyfat %?

probably close to 25% (give or take) I was probably down around 15% or less previously

What sort of equipment is it you have access to at home?

dumbells (olympic dbell handles that I would have to load/remove weights). Incline/decline/flat bench. Squat/bench rack. Low cable pulley. High cable pulley. All of the "machines" are actually free weight plate loaded.

What is the goal you're actually looking to hit?
I want women to go crazy and sexually ravage me on sight. Seriously though, I would like to be around 180-185 with 12% bodyfat. I was within 1.5" of my target of a 36" waist (measure around the fattest part of my waist around the navel)

Training 3-4x weekly is pretty normal, and you should be able to get a good session in that takes 75 minutes or less if you keep a good pace.

I used to do around 60-90 minutes of weight work plus 45 minutes of cardio (and ab work) per exercise, but that is where I wondered if I overdid it a bit.

[VikingWarlord]

Ok, first off, if you feel like you want a physical, go ahead and get one. Take advice about excercise, diet, and nutrition you get from doctors with a grain of salt...most of them still use that worthless-ass Food Pyramid.

I guarantee the first thing that you'll have to do is clean up the diet. No matter how clean you think it is, chances are good it can be better. Since you're not entirely certain what your current stats are, you can use your "pipe dream" stats to build from, and that's what we'll do.

You'll have to keep track of what you're eating. I highly recommend using www.fitday.com to check. Get yourself a food scale and start measuring things. After a few weeks of that, you'll be able to eyeball it pretty easily.

You really need to figure out what your maintenance calorie level is. This is the amount of food energy you have to take in to stay the same weight at your current activity level. There are formulas, but they suck and really can't give you much of an advantage. Take a week or two, carefully track everything you eat. If you stay the same weight, you can call that your maintenance level. A diet will be built around that information.

No reason you can't start training though. It looks like you've got some equipment to get started, though you might eventually need to hit a gym...but you can burn that bridge when you come to it. Do you want to do 3 days or 4 days a week? Setting up a split is pretty easy, the number of days changes how you balance things though.

Read the article I linked in the post above yours to read about the right way to do cardio for fat loss.

It's a good idea to ease into this stuff one step at a time. Slamming all this shit into your life in one shot is a surefire way to burn out fast.

[L. Ron Hoover]

What's the deal with HIIT stuff like that Guerilla program?

I do intervals now but it's more like 2 minutes high intensity, 2 minutes low intensity for 40 minutes or so. I'm usually hitting my maximum HR at the end. Would I really be better off doing short, really high intensity intervals?

I'm looking to get rid of a pesky 5-6lbs of abdominal fat and to increase my overall CV fitness.

[jwh]

meathead-VW, i do mild exersize & watch my diet for one purpose, to control my diabetes, & my a1c's & what not are better controlled than i was ever on meds, but i need to step it up a notch, hopefully you can shed some light on the diet part

my exersize is simply walking with a little jogging, 1/2 hr - 45 minutes 3-4 times per week, seems to do the trick, along witha little stricter diet i brought my "way out of control" diabetes into a "damn, those are like pre-diabetic numbers" as quoted by my nurse practicioner.

so anyhow, my diet is based on nothing more than reducing carbs, but i was reading some stuff last night that my wife saved for me on her computer at home about the carbs vs. fiber, & how to reduce the net carbs by eating higher fiber foods for an overall lower glaucemic index number & im willing to give more carbs consideration in my diet (i do understand carbs are important)

that all being said, up to this pooint i have just said fuck you to bread, potatoes & pasta for the most part refusing to believe the more complex carbs spiked your blood sugars less

something i found really interesting was pasta, cooked 45 minutes it has a real high glacemic index ?? (GI), 15 minutes, it scores a medium number, & & with 6 minutes of cooking it scores a low number

so anyhow, if you have any advise or expertise on these issues, i would appreciate it

[VikingWarlord]

Alright, Elrond, I scrapped my original response in favor of something simpler. If you want a more detailed explanation, I'll put it up.

Truthfully, your best results are going to come from a combination of modalities.

If your diet is under control (pretty high protein) and you're eating below maintenance calories, then fat loss is easy...at least in theory. Just remember that you can't target where you lose from.

When I'm talking about HIIT, I'm referring to very short work intervals during which you go as hard as you can. If you don't feel like vomiting when you're done, you didn't go hard enough. These are the things mentioned in the above article. 8 Seconds of Glory (or Doom, depending who you talk to), Tabata, etc are tried and true methods for targeting fat loss. Here's how it works.

Basically, during these hardcore work intervals, your body very quickly depletes its glycogen stores. The metabolic byproduct is lactic acid. Your lactate threshhold is hit when your body produces more than it can get rid of. At that point, your body starts breaking down fat cells and releases the free fatty acids (FFAs) into your bloodstream.

It doesn't take a lot to get to that point, at least to start. If you choose really hardcore interval periods, you can start with 8-10 w:r intervals. By this point, you've got all these FFAs floating around your blood, so you need to do a short (12-15 minute) steady state session, just some time on a treadmill at a brisk walking pace or something like that.

Feeding HIIT is really important. You want to throw down some fast carbohydrates (maltodextrin or dextrose) 20 minutes or so before you start your session. This will make sure your muscles have plenty of fuel to start.

Here's where it gets even better. The intervals that you mentioned doing before are actually very beneficial to your overall endurance and cardiovascular health. When you train for endurance, you increase capillary density. This means you're increasing the amount of blood that can get to the muscles, also giving you an increased lactate threshhold AND an increased VO2 Max, which is the volume amount of the maximum uptake of oxygen...basically the standard for how in shape you are.

What's this mean? It means that when you combine these different protocols, it's actually a form of cardio that threatens to be more efficient the better shape you're in. The tradeoff is that you have to push harder and harder every single time in order to keep going, but your endurance and overall health has also increased.

If any part of this isn't completely clear, let me know and I'll go into more detail. This post was about 3x this long before I decided to machete the shit out of it.

jwh, I'm really not sure exactly what the question is and what it is you're looking to do. If you can give me more specific goals, I can see what I can find out.

I can tell you that GI doesn't mean shit when you're combining foods.

[sheepdog]

I was used to a 3 day split over 4 days per week. I used to do: back and legs, chest and bicep, shoulder and tricep. I had 2 separate workouts per day. sort of like: day 1a, day 2a, day 3a day 1b, day 2b, day 3b repeat

completely open to ideas. you have a lot more knowledge than me.

i just saw my future self walk in the restaurant and it scared the shit out of me.

better to do cardio in the am with weights? am weights and pm cardio? best pulse rate range for cardio? any different for fat loss?

thanks

[VikingWarlord]

If you're interested in a 3 day split, consider this:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712752

Be very careful about what you read on that site though. A lot of those people have NO idea what's going on.

It's a good basic program for people that are either new or starting back into the madness. It's very simple, very short, and designed to be very heavy. Heavy weightlifting != big ass Hulk-beast.

As for cardio, check out what I wrote up above. HIIT should be done either immediately after your weight training or at a gap of at least 6 hours. Hill Repeats (as mentioned in the above posted article) qualify as HISS (High Intensity Steady State) and still have the same benefits as mentioned above for increasing endurance, capillary density, yadda yadda, bullshit, etc.

Also, do NOT do any sort of weight training within 1 hour of getting up and moving in the morning. The extra fluid in the discs of your back will amplify any stress you put on them and can lead to nerve issues in the back. It usually takes about an hour of being vertical for it all to drain.

[sheepdog]

that might have been how I hurt my back before. I was at th gym working out within 1 hour after getting out of bed.

good to know

[sheepdog]

looks like a great program. Forgive my ignorance, but a gallon of milk a day? my primary goal is cardio and fat loss, but that link seems to be more for powerlifting and bulk.

[VikingWarlord]

I forgot to tell you don't worry about the diet part. Focus on the training part. Use some combination of the cardio modalities I've gone over.

To lose weight, you need to eat less than you burn. To lose fat, you have to tell your body to burn fat. You do that by using your muscles. Lifting heavy tells your body "hey, we're using the meat, start burning something else".

Getting big and muscular isn't easy and it doesn't happen by accident. Too many people think that if they lift heavy weights, they're somehow going to wake up one day and have the body of Ronnie Coleman...so they run a lot and don't eat anything but salads and end up with the body of Gary Coleman.

If you're eating a caloric deficit, you can't build muscle...unless you're an absolute beginner, and even those gains are limited.

Remember that there's a difference between getting thin and getting lean, just like there's a difference between losing weight and losing fat.

[JustDave]

Am I the only one that thought this was ask a methhead? :smack:

[VikingWarlord]

Probably not. I'm sure just as many people thought it was the reincarnation of "Ask A Metalhead".

[VikingWarlord]

So what is sufficient intake on protien per day?
And what types of protien should I be eating besides chicken and turkey all the time? I know red meat is mostly out because of the higher fat content. (That sucks too because we have a chest freezer full of beef thanks to my parents.)

Shit... why can't a large Meat Lover's pizza be good for me. :(

I thought I'd put this up before, but I guess not.

There's nothing wrong with red meat, just control yourself. Hell, throw down beef jerky. Depending on the seasonings, that's almost pure myosin protein.

Chicken, turkey, lean cuts of pork, lean cuts of beef, white fish (though salmon and tuna are good too), and cottage cheese are the most common sources of most protein. Lamb, buffalo, venison, and pretty much any other animal meat is good too, just make sure they're leaner cuts.

Beans are a good source of both protein and fiber, but they're also starchy. Nuts are mostly fat sources, though they have some protein.

[VikingWarlord]

yeah, dieting too strictly will up your cortisol (a hormone your body puts out in response to stress, both physical and ? emotional). cortisol will cause your body to want to hold onto as many calories as possible, storing them as fat, until the perceived threat (starvation in this case) is over. it's a survival mechanism.

for me, i don't feel hungry at this calorie level. i eat 5 times per day and, while I am hungry before each meal, i don't feel like i'm starved. it's the right level for me to lose weight at. but, this is different for everyone. generally, 1800-2000 calories is a good starting point for losing weight for a person my size.

It's possible to diet very strictly and do really well. I did a PSMF (Protein Sparing Modified Fast, aka Protein Strictly Mother Fucker) where I was taking in about 240g of protein daily and hitting no more than 1300 calories daily. In 21 days, I dropped 13 lbs, 7 of which were fat, the other 6 were water. On a strict LC diet, you shed water like fucking crazy.

It's amazingly hard to do something really strict, but it's possible. You get physiological and psychological benefits by taking a cheat meal and a structured refeed once a week.

Anyone interested should look into The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook and A Guide To Flexible Dieting, both by Lyle McDonald.

[Low Tone]

I thought I'd put this up before, but I guess not.

There's nothing wrong with red meat, just control yourself. Hell, throw down beef jerky. Depending on the seasonings, that's almost pure myosin protein.

Chicken, turkey, lean cuts of pork, lean cuts of beef, white fish (though salmon and tuna are good too), and cottage cheese are the most common sources of most protein. Lamb, buffalo, venison, and pretty much any other animal meat is good too, just make sure they're leaner cuts.

Beans are a good source of both protein and fiber, but they're also starchy. Nuts are mostly fat sources, though they have some protein.

Cool.... I can just trim the beef and throw it on the George Foreman we got this last weekend.

I haven't had lamb buffalo or deer meat in years.
Lamb burgers are tastey. (Ducks the flames from PETA)

I forgot about fish.
That's odd because I love fish. (Except Salmon..... *shiver*)
I'm getting tired of tuna though. Gonna have to look for some other fish and figure out how to cook it on the GF Grill.

Cottage Cheese is high in protien? :huh:
Did not know that. I always thought it was big for calcium.

So as for the other part, how many grams of protien is "sufficient?"
Or do I just keep eating it as long as I don't break my calorie count?

What about eggs?

[King Kashue]

Cottage Cheese is high in protien? :huh:
Did not know that. I always thought it was big for calcium.

It's good for both. Cheese is dairy, dairy is calcium (though obviously some forms are better than others, it's all got more calcium than say, chicken :D)

Cheese in general is very good for protein, the only thing to watch out for is fat intake. Cottage cheese is good for that, usually having around 4-5g of fat for 12-14g of protein...The lowfat/nonfat versions are even better for fat intake (obviously :D) and in particular, the lowfat still tastes similar so you don't have to force yourself to eat it (at least I don't)...The low-fat also benefits because one of the ways to adjust for the loss of taste from the fat is to add sugars (i.e., carbohydrates) and the low-fat strikes a good balance between fat and carbs...

[VikingWarlord]

I eat the lowfat cottage cheese, personally. I like it more than FF cottage cheese and prefer to get most of my fats from other sources, with peanut butter and olive oil being two of my favorites.

Fats are good for you. Fats help your body produce testosterone, which is beneficial in maintaining muscle tissue during weight loss, among MANY other things.

As for the protein intake, the general guideline is 1-1.25g per lb of lean mass, as high as 1.5g if you're a runner since endurance training results in greater catabolism. If you don't know and can't estimate what your LBM is, figure 85-88% of your "pipe dream" weight.

[Low Tone]

Fats are good for you. Fats help your body produce testosterone, which is beneficial in maintaining muscle tissue during weight loss, among MANY other things.

OK, but fats are what make you....ummm.... Fat.
So I still have to eat the shit I'm trying to get rid of?
Or is it the trans fat/saturated fat/nonsaturated fat scenario?

This is seriously starting to sound like an Amp, Ohms & Watts conversation.

*starts to consider liposuction and a stomache reduction*

:freak:

[VikingWarlord]

Fat does not make you fat. Look in the mirror and say that over and over and over again until you learn it.

Don't eat trans fats. If the ingredients of something contain the word "hydrogenated", don't eat it.

Here's what you need to know:

Protein and fats are the only two of the 4 macronutrients your body NEEDS to survive (the other two are carbohydrates and alcohol).

It's my guess that the biggest reason people decided to start avoiding fat is because it's calorie dense. Fat has 9 calories per gram whereas protein and carbohydrates each have 4. A lot of the country's health problems began getting out of control when the lowfat craze hit the US in the mid 1980s.

Saturated fats will increase both your HDL and LDL cholesterol, however they're what provide most of the fuel for production of testosterone and other steroid hormones. They also increase insulin resistance (the long term effects of which are seriously bad juju), so you need some but no more than about 1/3 of your fat intake should be composed of saturated fats.

Polyunsaturated fats generally lower LDL and raise HDL cholesterols. In addition, they assist in regulating of blood pressure, blood clotting, and heart function, they influence the contraction of the bronchial tubes, they protect the mucous membranes of stomach and intestine against the acids in the digestive juices, they regulate inflammatory and immune reactions, and they also play a role in reproduction. Omega 3 and 6 acids are the only fatty acids that your body cannot synthesize from other sources, and these are the oils found in flaxseed and fish oil. Fish oil is a MUCH better source and you should be taking around 6000mg per day minimum.

A 1:10 ratio of n3 and n6 EFAs to other fats has been suggested as a guideline, but that might be overkill. Certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not really necessary.

Monounsaturated fats are generally related to heart health. They also lower LDL and raise HDL cholesterols.

Here's a quick breakdown:

http://www.wannabebig.com/images/mmmfat8.gif

So, yeah. Fats are important to your body. As for how much to consume, you should generally be taking in about a half a gram of fat per pound of LBM.

[Low Tone]

Protein and fats are the only two of the 4 macronutrients your body NEEDS to survive (the other two are carbohydrates and alcohol).
Alcohol? :eyebrow:

It's my guess that the biggest reason people decided to start avoiding fat is because it's calorie dense. Fat has 9 calories per gram whereas protein and carbohydrates each have 4. A lot of the country's health problems began getting out of control when the lowfat craze hit the US in the mid 1980s.

Why is everbody so down on carbs now?

Saturated fats will increase both your HDL and LDL cholesterol, however they're what provide most of the fuel for production of testosterone and other steroid hormones. They also increase insulin resistance (the long term effects of which are seriously bad juju), so you need some but no more than about 1/3 of your fat intake should be composed of saturated fats.
So it's bad for you but you need it anyway....

Polyunsaturated fats generally lower LDL and raise HDL cholesterols. In addition, they assist in regulating of blood pressure, blood clotting, and heart function, they influence the contraction of the bronchial tubes, they protect the mucous membranes of stomach and intestine against the acids in the digestive juices, they regulate inflammatory and immune reactions, and they also play a role in reproduction.
So this is the good stuff.

Omega 3 and 6 acids are the only fatty acids that your body cannot synthesize from other sources, and these are the oils found in flaxseed and fish oil. Fish oil is a MUCH better source and you should be taking around 6000mg per day minimum.
I guess I'm gonna have to add a couple more tables a day.
I've been taking 1,200 mg capsules. 2 in the morning and 2 at night.

A 1:10 ratio of n3 and n6 EFAs to other fats has been suggested as a guideline, but that might be overkill. Certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not really necessary.
I'm glad it's not necessary because I have no idea what you just said.

Monounsaturated fats are generally related to heart health. They also lower LDL and raise HDL cholesterols.
So which is better? Poly or Mono?

Here's a quick breakdown:

http://www.wannabebig.com/images/mmmfat8.gif

So, yeah. Fats are important to your body. As for how much to consume, you should generally be taking in about a half a gram of fat per pound of LBM.
Man this is turning into a lot of counting..... :dunno:
:D

[VikingWarlord]

Alcohol? :eyebrow:

Yes, it's actually considered a macronutrient. It's been suggested to have some benefits, though questionable.

Why is everbody so down on carbs now?

It's not that they're down on carbohydrates so much as they're just not necessary for good health. Cutting fats out of the diet and replacing them with carbed up products resulted in a lot of bad things happening since they had to replace the fats with something.

Truthfully, foods labelled "low carb" are typically just as shitty. You're better off eating real food but managing your intake.

So it's bad for you but you need it anyway....

Too much of it is bad, which is where the 1/3 guideline came about.

So this is the good stuff.

Both poly- and monounsaturated are "the good stuff", but this one has a wider range of benefits, yes.

I guess I'm gonna have to add a couple more tables a day.
I've been taking 1,200 mg capsules. 2 in the morning and 2 at night.

Really, if you're taking 4 1200mg caps, just add one more per day and you're at 6000. I take mine all in the morning with my multi, vitamin D, and

I'm glad it's not necessary because I have no idea what you just said.

Basically, the 1:10 ratio means for every 10 grams of general fat you consume, 1g of that should be Omega3 and Omega6.

So which is better? Poly or Mono?

They're both important. Mono is better for general heart health, but poly takes care of almost everything else.

Man this is turning into a lot of counting..... :dunno:
:D

Yeah, it's a little overwhelming at first, but you get used to it. I've been doing this long enough that I can plan an entire day in a few minutes. I've memorized the macro breakdowns of all kinds of foods so I can guesstimate pretty easily.

If you're sitting at work not doing anything anyway, just start reading around about it all. I think I threw out a stack of links in the 200 Pounds thread.

[MBIYF]

How long does it take a meathead to notice he has a PM?

[i_wanna_les_paul]

Okay, I'll ask this - should be simple, but who knows.

A few years ago, I was jogging 20 minutes, 4-5 times a week. I did this for several months, but quit because I had perpetually sore muscles. I stretched before and after workouts, but I still kept getting sore.

Is there a good way to avoid sore muscles? I'm looking at getting into jogging again and I'm thinking I'll need to slowly work my way up and stretch every day. Anything I'm missing?

Dustin

[sheepdog]

wear better shoes?
check your jogging form?
ride a bike (easier on the joints, but not necessarilly easier on the muscles)
don't listen to answers from overweight assholes on internet forums?

:D

(that was self deprecating in case someone assumed that was directed towards someone else)

[L. Ron Hoover]

Alright, Elrond, I scrapped my original response in favor of something simpler. If you want a more detailed explanation, I'll put it up.

+ lots of excellent information.



Thanks man. I've been meaning to pop back and post in this thread but things have been a bit hectic. I think that I'm generally pretty fit. I'm 5'10" and about 185. Basically the only place where I have appreciable fat is around my abdomen and I can't seem to shake it. I suspect the problem is primarily dietary for me. I get lots of exercise of varying kinds. I'm not looking to get any bigger than I am but I'd like to shed that bit of fat and I'm always looking to improve strength and overall cardiovascular fitness.

For the last week I've been doing 1 minute intervals. Walking at 3.5MPH at a 10 degree angle to running at 5.5MPH at the same incline. The 3.5/10 is enough to get my heart rate to about 120BPM after 5 minutes or so. I'm using the incline and walking because long periods of running hurts my back. After 8 reps of a minute of 5.5MPH then 1 minute 3.5 (so 8 x 5.5MPH, 8 x 3.5), I'm hitting 180+ BPM, which is theoretically my max HR based on the 220-age formula. But it's not exhausting me. Should I be hitting it harder on the intervals?

On top of that I've been DH skiing, which is primarily anaerobic and doing some core stuff, dips, wide grip chinups, pushups, squats etc. as well. Mountain biking season is coming up and I want to be in as good shape as possible for it.

Lots of excellent info in this thread. Thanks VW!

[philthygeezer]

Is it 1g of protein per pound of lean muscle or per pound of lean body mass? IE: if I picture me at 175 and 10% fat then I should be eating 175-17.5=157.5 g of protien every day?

FitDay says I'm getting about 100 g protein daily. I workout 1-2x per week now. Is this fine?

[VikingWarlord]

Okay, I'll ask this - should be simple, but who knows.

A few years ago, I was jogging 20 minutes, 4-5 times a week. I did this for several months, but quit because I had perpetually sore muscles. I stretched before and after workouts, but I still kept getting sore.

Is there a good way to avoid sore muscles? I'm looking at getting into jogging again and I'm thinking I'll need to slowly work my way up and stretch every day. Anything I'm missing?

Dustin

If it's just muscular soreness, there's not really much that can be done. ZMA or microlactin supplements have been suggested for DOMS, but I've never found anything that works. Hell, I did my squat day last Tuesday and I'm still feeling it. Stretching won't really help avoid it, sadly. Making sure you're warmed up first would probably help.

If you figure out that magic bullet, let me know...

Thanks man. I've been meaning to pop back and post in this thread but things have been a bit hectic. I think that I'm generally pretty fit. I'm 5'10" and about 185. Basically the only place where I have appreciable fat is around my abdomen and I can't seem to shake it. I suspect the problem is primarily dietary for me. I get lots of exercise of varying kinds. I'm not looking to get any bigger than I am but I'd like to shed that bit of fat and I'm always looking to improve strength and overall cardiovascular fitness.

For the last week I've been doing 1 minute intervals. Walking at 3.5MPH at a 10 degree angle to running at 5.5MPH at the same incline. The 3.5/10 is enough to get my heart rate to about 120BPM after 5 minutes or so. I'm using the incline and walking because long periods of running hurts my back. After 8 reps of a minute of 5.5MPH then 1 minute 3.5 (so 8 x 5.5MPH, 8 x 3.5), I'm hitting 180+ BPM, which is theoretically my max HR based on the 220-age formula. But it's not exhausting me. Should I be hitting it harder on the intervals?

What you're doing is a pretty good endurance base (a good thing), but it's not really what most people would define as true HIIT. I'm not sure if I missed your schedule, but I'd suggest doing something like this once a week, something like the Hill Repeats I mentioned earlier once a week, and then some sort of true HIIT twice a week.

As I mentioned before, doing the endurance training will be good in that as your CV system gets stronger, you'll be able to go harder and harder. The longer the intervals, the more you get tired. Keeping the short intervals means you can go as hard as possible, the short rest period is long enough to recover energy, but not enough for your heart to actually slow down, so you're still pumping catecholamines through your system. The harder you work, the more catecholamines your body releases.

If possible, change the modality (don't do everything on a treadmill). You can use a a stationary bike, jump rope, rowing machine, elliptical, or whatever else you want to do, but it's important to change things up.

If you can only do 3 days, forget about the Hills and do

Is it 1g of protein per pound of lean muscle or per pound of lean body mass? IE: if I picture me at 175 and 10% fat then I should be eating 175-17.5=157.5 g of protien every day?

FitDay says I'm getting about 100 g protein daily. I workout 1-2x per week now. Is this fine?

It's LBM, which is everything that's not fat, so yes, your numbers are right, give or take a few. Going by that, I'd suggest shooting for about 80g of fats with about 25-30g of that being saturated. That'll make sure your

I would bump up your protein intake though. It's surprisingly easy to get in extra protein. A pack of beef jerky, a cup of cottage cheese, a can of tuna, it's all relatively cheap and easy to do.

It would be good to get more workouts in, but take it one step at a time. I'd say a dedicated 3 day per week schedule is good. It's possible to do full body workouts 2 days per week, though they can take a LONG time to get through.

[Zamfir]

RE: HIIT and going balls out until you puke...

I'm wondering if there are two reasons to dial it back a bit.

(1) When you're getting older. There have been times, well before vomit point, when I feel like I'm going to pass out or my heart is pumping too hard or I'm pretty close to overheating, and I seriously wonder if what I'm feeling is blood pressure pushed up higher and harder than it should be. Might just be an individualized limit for me, but... :shrug:

(2) Related to the previous point, doesn't HIIT intensity depend on your conditioning?

I like to go for 16-18 minutes of HIIT at the moment, followed by 20-25 min of SS cardio, but I only get to the gym 1-2x a week. If I tried to go until I puke in the early stages of training, I'd probably end up in the ER. So I figure I'll push my self harder, gradually as time goes on.

I'm thinking it's better to be safe than stupid. Go hard, but listen to your body. ;)

[VikingWarlord]

I'll answer these in reverse order.

Yes, intensity does depend on conditioning, which is why you do both HIIT and some endurance training.

You won't necessarily vomit, that's just a common reaction. Being lightheaded and passing out...yeah, it happens. It's not necessarily a function of age though. Most of the people I've learned these things from are either nearing or over 40 and actually use these protocols. If you've got heart issues it's not a good idea to go this route.

There's nothing wrong with holding off a bit, though be aware that you won't reap the full benefits if you're not pushing as hard as possible. Truthfully, not many people really learn how far they can actually push themselves.

Everything I say is, of course, geared toward people that are in more or less good health. The stuff doesn't really apply to special conditions.

[King Kashue]

And remember kids, "It's not really bulimia if you vomit from running hard" :D

[philthygeezer]

It's LBM, which is everything that's not fat, so yes, your numbers are right, give or take a few. Going by that, I'd suggest shooting for about 80g of fats with about 25-30g of that being saturated. That'll make sure your

I would bump up your protein intake though. It's surprisingly easy to get in extra protein. A pack of beef jerky, a cup of cottage cheese, a can of tuna, it's all relatively cheap and easy to do.

It would be good to get more workouts in, but take it one step at a time. I'd say a dedicated 3 day per week schedule is good. It's possible to do full body workouts 2 days per week, though they can take a LONG time to get through.

Ok, cottage cheese is now in. I take a multivitamin every day as well.

What do you think of the following: I'm renewing my pool membership and thinking to start off with 3 workouts a week. 1 upper body, 1 lower, and swimming on Saturdays for a couple hours. I'll work out as often as muscles fully recuperate between sessions. So far I'm sore for 2-3 days after a workout.

[VikingWarlord]

Honestly, the best way to get rid of DOMS is to use the muscles.

Before I comment on the first two days, what is the plan you're looking to follow, or have you not figured that out yet?

As for swimming, that's a good question. I would imagine that hours spent swimming would have the same effect as hours of running. It's essentially a form of steady state cardio that ends up having the same catabolic effects. As such, you could probably use any of the HIIT protocols and do swim sprints instead of on a bike or treadmill or something.

I'm going to look into that because it's an interesting idea.

[philthygeezer]

Honestly, the best way to get rid of DOMS is to use the muscles.

Before I comment on the first two days, what is the plan you're looking to follow, or have you not figured that out yet?

As for swimming, that's a good question. I would imagine that hours spent swimming would have the same effect as hours of running. It's essentially a form of steady state cardio that ends up having the same catabolic effects. As such, you could probably use any of the HIIT protocols and do swim sprints instead of on a bike or treadmill or something.

I'm going to look into that because it's an interesting idea.

I haven't figured out the exact exercises yet as I'm reading up on calisthenic and bodyweight exercises. For now I think dumbells, dips and pushups to work my upper body, squats and lunges to work my lower body. I'm frequently inconvenienced, so would like to build a workout that doesn't require anything more than stretch cords and push-up bars. I can increase resistance by buying new stretch cords. I'll go swimming and gym when time allows but need a portable resistance workout in order to keep continuity.

My pet thoughts are that muscle soreness is the result of micro-tearing in muscle fiber and consequent rebuilding and strengthening. The soreness seems like a return to health and one might wait until it's gone and then hit those muscles again. :confused::confused:

I have to clean up my diet a bit more. Only saving about 300 calories per day on average this week. Should be 500.

[VikingWarlord]

I haven't figured out the exact exercises yet as I'm reading up on calisthenic and bodyweight exercises. For now I think dumbells, dips and pushups to work my upper body, squats and lunges to work my lower body. I'm frequently inconvenienced, so would like to build a workout that doesn't require anything more than stretch cords and push-up bars. I can increase resistance by buying new stretch cords. I'll go swimming and gym when time allows but need a portable resistance workout in order to keep continuity.

My pet thoughts are that muscle soreness is the result of micro-tearing in muscle fiber and consequent rebuilding and strengthening. The soreness seems like a return to health and one might wait until it's gone and then hit those muscles again. :confused::confused:

I have to clean up my diet a bit more. Only saving about 300 calories per day on average this week. Should be 500.

DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness) is actually caused by a buildup of lactic acid in the muscles. Lactic acid is the main byproduct of glycogen metabolism. You don't want to work the same muscle groups too often. Twice a week is sufficient per group so you have plenty of recovery time between sessions.

Some people are more DOMS sensitive than others, and some bodyparts sometimes hurt more than others. I know that after I squat heavy, my quads scream at me for upwards of 5 days later. It's not all that uncommon.

Band training is a pretty simple idea. Stretch the band so that you're working the muscles you want to hit and make sure you hit all the muscles twice a week. You can only get so far with that sort of resistance training, but it's cool for a start.

[King Kashue]

DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness) is actually caused by a buildup of lactic acid in the muscles. Lactic acid is the main byproduct of glycogen metabolism. You don't want to work the same muscle groups too often. Twice a week is sufficient per group so you have plenty of recovery time between sessions.

I find that if I do every other day (three times a week) I get less soreness than if I do every third day.

Am I doing something to inhibit benefit by doing that, or am I just lucking out that it reduces soreness for some reason?

[VikingWarlord]

If you're working every muscle group 3 times per week, you won't decrease benefit in the short term, but in the long term, you'll end up overtraining and need to deload more often.

Most people take a deloading week every 12-16 weeks depending on how you train. This can mean light workouts or time completely off.

It's not really a surprise that it reduces soreness. It's pretty well known that lifting is the cure for DOMS. It's a sick joke, kind of like drinking to cure a hangover. ;)

[L. Ron Hoover]

I'll answer these in reverse order.

Yes, intensity does depend on conditioning, which is why you do both HIIT and some endurance training.

You won't necessarily vomit, that's just a common reaction. Being lightheaded and passing out...yeah, it happens. It's not necessarily a function of age though. Most of the people I've learned these things from are either nearing or over 40 and actually use these protocols. If you've got heart issues it's not a good idea to go this route.

There's nothing wrong with holding off a bit, though be aware that you won't reap the full benefits if you're not pushing as hard as possible. Truthfully, not many people really learn how far they can actually push themselves.

Everything I say is, of course, geared toward people that are in more or less good health. The stuff doesn't really apply to special conditions.

Ok. Did my first true HIIT workout today. Alternating 30s sprints (8MPH) and 30s jog (4MPH), 10 degree incline; 5 sprints. I didn't quite feel like puking but I was a bit lightheaded after. I was surprised how much it beat me out. I'll pick the intensity up a bit next time to see if I can do it. I'm planning to do some of that type of training on the bike when the fucking snow finally melts....

[VikingWarlord]

If you're going to use a 30:30 interval, I'd say try to do 10 minutes worth, then jog or walk it out for 15-20 minutes after you're done to burn the FFAs. Also think about changing the intervals up a bit every few weeks. Go for 30:60, 20:10, whatever.

HIIT is definitely not for beginners, but even people in reasonable shape get their asses kicked because you don't really know what to expect until you try it.

[L. Ron Hoover]

If you're going to use a 30:30 interval, I'd say try to do 10 minutes worth, then jog or walk it out for 15-20 minutes after you're done to burn the FFAs. Also think about changing the intervals up a bit every few weeks. Go for 30:60, 20:10, whatever.

HIIT is definitely not for beginners, but even people in reasonable shape get their asses kicked because you don't really know what to expect until you try it.

I'm up to 10 30:30 intervals. I'm definitely feeling pretty punchy by the end of the 10th one.... With the equipment I'm using now (treadmill) 30s is about as fast an interval as I can do. I'm going to start adapting it to other machines and to my bike. Now I just need to get my eating under control... ;)

[VikingWarlord]

10 30:30 intervals should be damn near putting you on the ground if you're going hard enough. Just make sure you're doing something more to burn off those pesky FFAs or they'll just re-esterize.

[L. Ron Hoover]

10 30:30 intervals should be damn near putting you on the ground if you're going hard enough. Just make sure you're doing something more to burn off those pesky FFAs or they'll just re-esterize.

Pretty brutal for sure. I'm in pretty good shape but 10 minutes of that just about wrecks me. At the end of the intervals I have to force myself to keep moving, I just want to lie down.... :D
I've been doing a 35 minute workout. 5 minutes of warmup then the 10 intervals and then 20 minutes of light jogging to burn off the FFAs.

[Bogster]

Dear Meathead-

When you are done working 23 hours a day, please answer my question. What are the absolute best ab exercises? I've been working my upper body mostly (and getting some pretty decent results :thumbsup: ) but need to know what ab exercises are the most effective in matching what I've been doing for my chest, shoulders, and arms.

Thanks!

[VikingWarlord]

It's a good thing I have this thread set to automagically tell me when someone posts.

The absolute best exercise for the core is the squat. Either inverted or weighted crunches are good and so are hanging leg raises. You don't want to train any bodypart more than about twice a week, and you don't want to overtrain any of them. 3 sets of 10-12 done twice a week is fine.

Remember that doing a shitload of ab work isn't magically going to give you a washboard. If you grow the muscles, they'll stick out through the subcutaneous fat you've got, but getting rid of that fat is the way to do it right.

[Bogster]

I've been told that doing a certain exercise to "fail" is even better than doing 3 sets of 10, of 5 sets of 10, whatever the case. Is this true? Is doing your max weight to "fail" (say only 20 presses, but done to fail) better than lifting slightly less in sets? I hope I'm making sense, here. Or is what works for one person slightly different than for someone else?

Thanks for the core answer. I don't have a gut by any means, but it's not toned like I would like it to be. I've changed my diet radically over the last few weeks to include juicing and a lot of natural fruit smoothies. I've gotten down to eating only one solid meal a day outside of this and try to stay away from too much sugar or carbs. Input?

[VikingWarlord]

In reverse:

Natural fruit smoothies contain...SUGAR. A shitload of it, to be precise. In fact, that's almost all they contain, so by definition you're not really staying away from carbs, just starches. Depending on what you're eating, you also might not be getting enough fiber, though I don't know exactly what it is you're consuming.

The fructose sugar that you're getting is going to cause an insulin spike. Depending on your personal insulin sensitivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance), this very well may make you way hungrier. I have that problem so except for a cheat meal or a refeed, I target my carb intake to the peri-workout window.

This is why the low fat/high carb/cardio bunny fad through the 80s and up to the mid-90s caused so many people to fail epically on their diets. I already posted in here on the relative benefits of different fats so I won't repeat that.

There's nothing wrong with juicing and whatnot in and of itself, but whole foods are going to provide better satiety because they take longer to digest and will allow people to adopt healthier long term eating habits. Some sort of lean protein should be taken with every meal (however you define a meal is up to you). Any of the protein sources I've mentioned over and over will work just fine for that. It also helps if a green salad is included at least daily to help with fiber intake. Not only will the fiber keep you regular, but it expands in your stomach to help you eat less.

As for the question about working to failure, plyometric work to failure will usually end up in LOTS of repetitions before you fail. All you're really doing is putting yourself in a catabolic state. If your bodyweight gets to be too easy, start adding weight somehow or change the modality. Weighted work should be done with enough weight that by the time you're done, you're just about to the failure point without actually hitting it. You won't do less weight for less reps when it's weighted, you'll do MORE weight for fewer reps. Everyone's body will respond differently to different rep schemes, and even different body parts will respond differently. I can't do the same thing for my chest and quads because they don't react the same way.

It takes time to learn your body well enough to know when you're there. A lot of people don't push as hard as they're able to because they haven't learned how hard they can go.

[Bogster]

Natural fruit smoothies contain...SUGAR. A shitload of it, to be precise. In fact, that's almost all they contain, so by definition you're not really staying away from carbs, just starches.
Well. Shit. :( Is consuming fruits by themselves any different? Fruits I've been adding to my diet (by just eating them straight or making smoothies) include: strawberries, blueberries, pineapple, bananas, raspberries, etc. I've always eaten apples, and have been eating a quarter of a watermelon for lunch (which mainly just makes me piss a lot :() lately. In my juicing I've included carrots, romain lettuce, red peppers, celery, tomatoes, broccoli stems, to name a few. I've tried not to add too many carrots, as I've heard they're chock full of natural sugars.

There's nothing wrong with juicing and whatnot in and of itself, but whole foods are going to provide better satiety because they take longer to digest and will allow people to adopt healthier long term eating habits. Some sort of lean protein should be taken with every meal (however you define a meal is up to you).
When I eat solid meals I do try to include salads and some protein of some sort. I am one of the only people I know who will eat a bowl of raw broccoli for a snack. Of course, I don't eat this healthy ALL the time by any means, but have really limited my diet considerably trying to cut loose of the unnecessary garbage and fast foods.


As for the question about working to failure, plyometric work to failure will usually end up in LOTS of repetitions before you fail. All you're really doing is putting yourself in a catabolic state. If your bodyweight gets to be too easy, start adding weight somehow or change the modality. Weighted work should be done with enough weight that by the time you're done, you're just about to the failure point without actually hitting it. You won't do less weight for less reps when it's weighted, you'll do MORE weight for fewer reps. Everyone's body will respond differently to different rep schemes, and even different body parts will respond differently. I can't do the same thing for my chest and quads because they don't react the same way.
Thanks for that. How often should you work out? I've heard people that say they work out twice a day, every day, and other people who say that they work out the same reps/routines only twice or so a week. I've worked out four times this week. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and again today (Saturday). Of course, this is rare because I usually only work out every other day. I just don't see how musclehead guys like Arnold or Lou Ferrigno (in their prime) can NOT work out every day for hours and have a build like that.


It takes time to learn your body well enough to know when you're there. A lot of people don't push as hard as they're able to because they haven't learned how hard they can go.
This is very true. Some days I feel like I can go until I drop, and others I'm already exhausted ten minutes into it but still push myself to go longer...

[VikingWarlord]

Well. Shit. :( Is consuming fruits by themselves any different? Fruits I've been adding to my diet (by just eating them straight or making smoothies) include: strawberries, blueberries, pineapple, bananas, raspberries, etc. I've always eaten apples, and have been eating a quarter of a watermelon for lunch (which mainly just makes me piss a lot :() lately. In my juicing I've included carrots, romain lettuce, red peppers, celery, tomatoes, broccoli stems, to name a few. I've tried not to add too many carrots, as I've heard they're chock full of natural sugars.

Carrots are actually one of the starchy vegetables like corn and peas but there's nothing wrong with them in smaller amounts. The rest of the vegetables you're getting are actually pretty good, so that's really not that big a deal. It looks pretty much like a V8 only with a hell of a lot less sodium, I'm sure.

Fruits aren't bad by any means, you just need to watch how much you take in. When I'm not on a VLC, I eat grapes, apples, bananas, oranges, mangoes, pineapples, and whatever else I can get and usually close to when I train.

I highly suggest picking up some whey protein to add to your smoothies. Optimum Nutrition (ON) Whey is really good, relatively inexpensive as far as whey goes, and mixes very easily.

When I eat solid meals I do try to include salads and some protein of some sort. I am one of the only people I know who will eat a bowl of raw broccoli for a snack. Of course, I don't eat this healthy ALL the time by any means, but have really limited my diet considerably trying to cut loose of the unnecessary garbage and fast foods.

Just cutting a lot of crap out makes a huge impact. The only reason you might have to be strict is if you're one of the ones that has an emotional response to food and you're just starting out. If you're able to control yourself and limit what you're doing, you can include anything that doesn't include trans-fats in a healthy diet.

Also...raw broccoli? God, that's nasty. I have to at least steam it.

Thanks for that. How often should you work out? I've heard people that say they work out twice a day, every day, and other people who say that they work out the same reps/routines only twice or so a week. I've worked out four times this week. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and again today (Saturday). Of course, this is rare because I usually only work out every other day. I just don't see how musclehead guys like Arnold or Lou Ferrigno (in their prime) can NOT work out every day for hours and have a build like that.

They got that way through the generous use of anabolic steroids. Juice the right way and you gain muscle and drop fat without even having to get off the couch.

How often you should work out depends entirely on what your overall plan is. I do a 3 day split, 4 day is very popular. I know a lot of people that will do their cardio in the morning and resistance work in the afternoon/evening. Some people on certain diet programs just do full body workouts two or three times a week. Honestly, it really doesn't make much difference. The only real guideline is that each muscle group gets worked about twice a week. More than that and your body won't have enough time to recover properly. If all you're doing is upper body stuff, you don't need to go more than twice a week.

It would be really good for you to get some lower body work in...goblet or lumberjack or even prisoner squats and maybe some Romanian deadlifts, split squats, or Good Mornings for your erector chain (low back, gluteals, and hamstrings). Your lower back is very important in your overall stability.

This is very true. Some days I feel like I can go until I drop, and others I'm already exhausted ten minutes into it but still push myself to go longer...

You get really into it and you'll be surprised what you can make yourself do.

[thrash_jazz]

I've got a question that has been a bit of a stumper.

Over the past three or four weeks I've cut out a lot of junk and basically doubled my protein intake by replacing junk with protein shakes, and started working out again - at least three times a week, usually more.

Since I started, I've definitely gotten bigger and stronger. Shirts that used to hang loose now fit just right. At any rate, it appears to be working well.

The thing is, I started doing this to gain strength and weight, not lose it. I have yet to gain a single pound... what's going on? Other than the shakes, I haven't really changed anything else. Is this normal?

[VikingWarlord]

When you first start a program, you'll find you can make a lot of changes really quickly. This is what is usually referred to as "newbie gains". It's the only stage where it's possible to both gain mass and lose fat at the same time.

If you haven't gained any weight, you're not eating enough. Calories in > calories out = weight gain.

Have you taken a set of measurements? Anyone looking to gain or lose weight should take a set of measurements every 2 months or so. It's also a good idea to take photos of yourself at the same time. What might happen is the scale isn't moving but you can actually see the progression over time through photos.

Sometimes you might find your chest has increased and your waist has decreased. It's a pretty clear indication that you're recomping even though the scale isn't moving. The scale shouldn't be the primary indicator of progress. The mirror, your eyes, and a measuring tape should be far more important than the scale.

What kinds of shakes are you taking? You might want to start throwing other things into those to boost calories.

[Bogster]

So I've picked up some whey protein and started adding it to my smoothies. Before I did, I did some investigating and reading up about it. Seems that while most sites had really good and positive things to say about it, there did seem to be the question of whether it was good or bad for you on a couple of sites I visited. Such as the effects of whey protein on your liver, etc. I still plan to give it a test run, personally, but was wondering if you've heard any horror stories about it yet...

[VikingWarlord]

The dangers of whey are bullshit. Whey is a naturally occurring protein found in dairy products. It's a byproduct of cheese making. It's harmless and happens to be the most bioavailable form of protein there is. Myocin (meat), egg, and casein (the other dairy protein) last longer because they're more complex proteins.

There also haven't ever been any conclusive studies done on the maximum amount of protein your body can process...another old wives' tale. It gets old to hear morons talk about how you can't handle more than (insert random number) of grams of protein per sitting, since that depends on more factors than anyone can realistically calculate.

Incidentally, since we're debunking myths, in case anyone had any fears about Creatine Monohydrate, it's also harmless (and definitely NOT a steroid :rolleyes:) and all the fears are unfounded. If anyone wants to waste a chunk of his life reading about it, check out www.creatinemonohydrate.net and read everything you never cared to know about it.

[thrash_jazz]

When you first start a program, you'll find you can make a lot of changes really quickly. This is what is usually referred to as "newbie gains". It's the only stage where it's possible to both gain mass and lose fat at the same time.

If you haven't gained any weight, you're not eating enough. Calories in > calories out = weight gain.

Have you taken a set of measurements? Anyone looking to gain or lose weight should take a set of measurements every 2 months or so. It's also a good idea to take photos of yourself at the same time. What might happen is the scale isn't moving but you can actually see the progression over time through photos.

Sometimes you might find your chest has increased and your waist has decreased. It's a pretty clear indication that you're recomping even though the scale isn't moving. The scale shouldn't be the primary indicator of progress. The mirror, your eyes, and a measuring tape should be far more important than the scale.

What kinds of shakes are you taking? You might want to start throwing other things into those to boost calories.

Thanks a lot man, I appreciate it! :thumbsup:

It's pretty much just straight protein powder - mostly Vega and Heartland. I'm allergic to milk products and eggs so I can't go for the really high-cal types.

So if you're going for straight-up mass gain, what's the best food group to pick up the slack? I've already pretty much doubled my protein intake so I don't know if going for even more would be a good idea. Would it be carbs then, or is pretty much any calorie source fine?

What you described is pretty much exactly what's happened - bigger chest, smaller waist. So what you mean is that I'm gaining muscle mass but losing fat at the same rate, and that's why I'm not gaining?

[VikingWarlord]

Do you know how high your protein intake actually is? It might not be as much as you think. If you want a guideline for how much you should be consuming, take 85-87% of your target weight, then multiply that number by 1.25. This will be your approximate minimum.

Since you're allergic to milk, this makes things a little harder, but doable. Instead of copying all of it over here, read What A Bodybuilder Eats (http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=46565). Fats are good for you, but try to limit the saturated fats to no more than about 1/3 of your overall intake. Peanut butter and olive oil are the two biggest unsaturated fat staples for bodybuilders.

The changes you mentioned could be just what I suggested but without more information, it's hard to say. It's likely you're just getting the newbie gains and that'll stop after the first 3 months or so. If you've got good genetics, you can keep going.

Track what you're actually eating on FitDay. You might not be eating as much as you think you are. Eating big requires training. You have to force and push yourself to do it and it sucks, but once you get used to it, it's easy.

[mlwarriner]

ok, i've come to the conclusion that i cannot exercise in the evenings. if i do it in the early evening, i feel bad for locking myself in the basement and shutting out the wife and the kids. if i wait until the kids are gone to bed, then i can't sleep until like midnight.

so i exercise in the morning. fine, i'm up anyway. may as well do something better for me that sitting on the internet, right?

my question is this - is it better or worse to eat or not eat before exercising? my routine for now is only about 15 minutes on the bicycle. having quit riding for so long, i'm going to have to work back up to 30 or 40 minutes a day. starting next week, i'm also going add in pushups and crunches/situps. again starting slow and working upward. i figure i should be able to do at least as many pushups and situps as the number of minutes i'm on the bike. bring them up slowly together.

so anyway - to eat or not to eat?