Quality of Sound Vs. Quality of Wood?

[Ron]

I read somewhere that Stradivarius used maple that had been soaked in
the sea for his violins (and harps) but does the wood significantly
affect the sound quality of a instrument? I started contructing my
Vulcan harp out of mahogany but some have suggested that I could have
used pine instead. Does any one know if there would be any
appreciative difference in quality between mahogany and pine, or even
spruce?

Ron

[Red Dog]

Hi Ron - I am not a luthier but have done some reading on that subject and
from that reading I would have to say that the answer to your question
is -ABSOLUTELY! Read up on tonewoods on these pages:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/ToneWoods/tonewoods1.html

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm

You can Google tonewoods and get a host of pages for research. In fact there
is plenty of data to indicate that the wood will affect the tone of
'electric' instruments too.

Good Luck
Red Dog

"Ron" <ryon@quik.com> wrote in message
news:1184502290.447989.316190@d30g2000prg.googlegr oups.com...
>I read somewhere that Stradivarius used maple that had been soaked in
> the sea for his violins (and harps) but does the wood significantly
> affect the sound quality of a instrument? I started contructing my
> Vulcan harp out of mahogany but some have suggested that I could have
> used pine instead. Does any one know if there would be any
> appreciative difference in quality between mahogany and pine, or even
> spruce?
>
> Ron
>

[alcarruth]

There is a lot of myth and mystique about 'tone wood', and
particularly concerning Strad. The last I read the sea water soaking
thing had pretty well been debuinked, as had the 'Little Ice Age'
theory, the 'extinct spruce' and several others. Strad did not make
better instruments because he had some 'magic' wood; he used more or
less the same stuff we can get, but he just knew what he was doing
better than we do.

Wood yeilds possibilities and sets limits. It is distressingly easy to
make a bad instrument out of really fine wood, and a good maker can
make a fine instrument out of pretty ordinary material. Very few of us
really have the skill to consistently realize all the possibilities of
the wood we get.

A highly developed design like a violin or guitar has a lot of built
in features that will help it to work well, so in that sense it can be
more forgiving of a poor wood choice. On the other hand, our
expectations are so high for these optimized designs that we notice
small deficiencies. This is likely to be less the case on something
like a Vulcan harp, which is still early in its development cycle.

All of which is to say: don't worry too much about it. Do the best job
you can, try to understand how the instrument works, and, when you get
done, see if you can figure out ways to make it work better. Maybe you
will find that the wood is critical, and maybe you won't, but there is
no way to know until you try.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

[Ron]

On Jul 15, 2:53 pm, alcarruth <alcarr...@aol.com> wrote:
> There is a lot of myth and mystique about 'tone wood', and
> particularly concerning Strad. The last I read the sea water soaking
> thing had pretty well been debuinked, as had the 'Little Ice Age'
> theory, the 'extinct spruce' and several others. Strad did not make
> better instruments because he had some 'magic' wood; he used more or
> less the same stuff we can get, but he just knew what he was doing
> better than we do.
>
> Wood yeilds possibilities and sets limits. It is distressingly easy to
> make a bad instrument out of really fine wood, and a good maker can
> make a fine instrument out of pretty ordinary material. Very few of us
> really have the skill to consistently realize all the possibilities of
> the wood we get.
>
> A highly developed design like a violin or guitar has a lot of built
> in features that will help it to work well, so in that sense it can be
> more forgiving of a poor wood choice. On the other hand, our
> expectations are so high for these optimized designs that we notice
> small deficiencies. This is likely to be less the case on something
> like a Vulcan harp, which is still early in its development cycle.
>
> All of which is to say: don't worry too much about it. Do the best job
> you can, try to understand how the instrument works, and, when you get
> done, see if you can figure out ways to make it work better. Maybe you
> will find that the wood is critical, and maybe you won't, but there is
> no way to know until you try.
>
> Alan Carruth / Luthier

Interesting... But, just out curiosity, why aren't violins and
electric guitars made out of pine?

Ron

[alcarruth]

Pine is low in density, but also low in stiffness, and it's not as
tough as spruce. Hence it's not usually used on acoustic guitars or
violins, where low weight and high strength are needed. Solidbody
electrics are a different beast entirely: generally speaking on those
you want high stiffness and mass, so they are usually made of hard
woods. There are lots of exceptions, of course.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

[Ron]

> Pine is low in density, but also low in stiffness, and it's not as
> tough as spruce. Hence it's not usually used on acoustic guitars or
> violins, where low weight and high strength are needed. Solidbody
> electrics are a different beast entirely: generally speaking on those
> you want high stiffness and mass, so they are usually made of hard
> woods. There are lots of exceptions, of course.


Hi, Alan;

Thanks for your insights. Sometimes I can be a little slow so it
really didn't occur to me to look but
eventually I did, and I found this on pine guitars:

http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm

and

the review of it at:

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Zachary+Guitars/Z-1/10/1

I wish I had read this before I spent so much money on mahogany. It's
just unfortunate that pine has
gotten such a bad rap. And the very name of it sounds poor and
pathetic compared to mahogany, even
maple. Bummer. -)

Ron

[thomas]

On Jul 15, 4:53 pm, alcarruth <alcarr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> A highly developed design like a violin or guitar has a lot of built
> in features that will help it to work well, so in that sense it can be
> more forgiving of a poor wood choice. On the other hand, our
> expectations are so high for these optimized designs that we notice
> small deficiencies. This is likely to be less the case on something
> like a Vulcan harp, which is still early in its development cycle.

You gotta have those pointy Vulcan ears to hear the difference.

[kindyroot]

My best choice is to combine different kinds of wood and to reinforce
it with burried pieces of metal, likewise i get a pretty hard and
musical instrument without making it be too heavy, this said i don't
recommend the use of too weak wood at all, use rather medium to strong
pieces of wood, old wood is also better, long exposure to heat can
help too, ... be creative.

[Ron]

On Jul 19, 8:09 am, kindyroot <kindyr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My best choice is to combine different kinds of wood and to reinforce
> it with burried pieces of metal, likewise i get a pretty hard and
> musical instrument without making it be too heavy, this said i don't
> recommend the use of too weak wood at all, use rather medium to strong
> pieces of wood, old wood is also better, long exposure to heat can
> help too, ... be creative.

I would love to get creative but the problem with the V. harp is that
three out of four surfaces are exposed, so that different woods would
have different grains visible. To some, that might be kinda cool, but
I'm a bit anal when it comes to things being consistent. I know...
foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, but what can I
say? :-)

Ron

[Mattia Valente]

Ron wrote:
>> Pine is low in density, but also low in stiffness, and it's not as
>> tough as spruce. Hence it's not usually used on acoustic guitars or
>> violins, where low weight and high strength are needed. Solidbody
>> electrics are a different beast entirely: generally speaking on those
>> you want high stiffness and mass, so they are usually made of hard
>> woods. There are lots of exceptions, of course.
>
>
> Hi, Alan;
>
> Thanks for your insights. Sometimes I can be a little slow so it
> really didn't occur to me to look but
> eventually I did, and I found this on pine guitars:
>
> http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm
>
> and
>
> the review of it at:
>
> http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Zachary+Guitars/Z-1/10/1
>
> I wish I had read this before I spent so much money on mahogany. It's
> just unfortunate that pine has
> gotten such a bad rap. And the very name of it sounds poor and
> pathetic compared to mahogany, even
> maple. Bummer. -)

For one thing, Pine's a hot topic among hardcore traditionalist Fender
Telecaster (broadcaster, I suppose) fans, as (apparently) the first ones
had pine bodies.

Secondly, please, please, please do yourself a favour and don't take
what Zac says as gospel truth. Or, hell, even as truth, for a lot of his
schtick. There may still be a quote of mine on the site (just checked;
still the front page. Hehe.) - the guy's got his marking spiel down to a
fine art, the whole 'all the big guys have it wrong/CNC is the DEVIL/I
make real instruments for REAL PLAYERS' vibe. The man's got Chutzpah,
even down to getting himself an interview in Esquire (not, I grant you,
a mag your average guitar player will be reading) complete with over the
top praise ('some of the finest isntruments ever crafted'), but it's
hardly the place to go for a consistent take on design philosophy (he's
got some very pricey bling wooded guitars on there next to the pine
ones, if you bother snooping around).

Still. Always an entertaining read.

Mattia

[Ron]

On Jul 23, 12:42 pm, Mattia Valente <mae.vale...@std.vu.nl> wrote:
> Ron wrote:
> >> Pine is low in density, but also low in stiffness, and it's not as
> >> tough as spruce. Hence it's not usually used on acoustic guitars or
> >> violins, where low weight and high strength are needed. Solidbody
> >> electrics are a different beast entirely: generally speaking on those
> >> you want high stiffness and mass, so they are usually made of hard
> >> woods. There are lots of exceptions, of course.
>
> > Hi, Alan;
>
> > Thanks for your insights. Sometimes I can be a little slow so it
> > really didn't occur to me to look but
> > eventually I did, and I found this on pine guitars:
>
> >http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm
>
> > and
>
> > the review of it at:
>
> >http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Zachary+Gui...
>
> > I wish I had read this before I spent so much money on mahogany. It's
> > just unfortunate that pine has
> > gotten such a bad rap. And the very name of it sounds poor and
> > pathetic compared to mahogany, even
> > maple. Bummer. -)
>
> For one thing, Pine's a hot topic among hardcore traditionalist Fender
> Telecaster (broadcaster, I suppose) fans, as (apparently) the first ones
> had pine bodies.
>
> Secondly, please, please, please do yourself a favour and don't take
> what Zac says as gospel truth. Or, hell, even as truth, for a lot of his
> schtick. There may still be a quote of mine on the site (just checked;
> still the front page. Hehe.) - the guy's got his marking spiel down to a
> fine art, the whole 'all the big guys have it wrong/CNC is the DEVIL/I
> make real instruments for REAL PLAYERS' vibe. The man's got Chutzpah,
> even down to getting himself an interview in Esquire (not, I grant you,
> a mag your average guitar player will be reading) complete with over the
> top praise ('some of the finest isntruments ever crafted'), but it's
> hardly the place to go for a consistent take on design philosophy (he's
> got some very pricey bling wooded guitars on there next to the pine
> ones, if you bother snooping around).
>
> Still. Always an entertaining read.
>
> Mattia- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh, I'm not about to go out and buy a $1500 pine guitar. I just wanted
to get some kind of feel for how my Vulcan harp is going to sound--
quality wise-- if I made it out of pine like the plans call for. I
ordered a few pieces of mahogany and it set me back over $160 and
that's just barely enough for the four pieces of the frame.

I bought it because of it's sustain qualities in geetars, but mostly
like an idiot I thought I was going to get nice, dark brown, wood; not
the pale stuff that I got. I'm gonna have to stain it after all just
to make it look like "mahogany." But with pine being soft-- and good
quality pine being expensive (I didn't know that)-- I decided to go
with either ash or oak for the frame; walnut for the neck. Ash is a
decent tone wood, and reasonably priced too. ;-)

Ron

[David Hajicek]

Thanks Ron. Those are fun reads.

Dave Hajicek

"Ron" <ryon@quik.com> wrote in message
news:1184739371.284466.108060@z24g2000prh.googlegr oups.com...
>> Pine is low in density, but also low in stiffness, and it's not as
>> tough as spruce. Hence it's not usually used on acoustic guitars or
>> violins, where low weight and high strength are needed. Solidbody
>> electrics are a different beast entirely: generally speaking on those
>> you want high stiffness and mass, so they are usually made of hard
>> woods. There are lots of exceptions, of course.
>
>
> Hi, Alan;
>
> Thanks for your insights. Sometimes I can be a little slow so it
> really didn't occur to me to look but
> eventually I did, and I found this on pine guitars:
>
> http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm
>
> and
>
> the review of it at:
>
> http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Zachary+Guitars/Z-1/10/1
>
> I wish I had read this before I spent so much money on mahogany. It's
> just unfortunate that pine has
> gotten such a bad rap. And the very name of it sounds poor and
> pathetic compared to mahogany, even
> maple. Bummer. -)
>
> Ron
>