Tuning "standards" for differen numbers of strings [Archive]

05-08-2007, 03:42 AM

Honestly, it depends on what you're coming in to learn.

If you're an advanced guy and want some polishing or a young guy and want
the VERY basics, these guys are good to go to. Hell, If I was interested in
bluegrass bass, My first step would be to go up into the mountains and ask
around for some Good ol Boy with an 8th grade education...

Thing is, If you're in between beginner and pro, that cancels out 90% of
your teaching base

I've got a good friend who is the classic "middle aged jazz guitarist" type.
He has NO concept of rock music, or even anything as basic as bending a
note. He can't transcribe say, a Jimi Hendrix song off the record, much less
a Green Day song.

Consequently, while the other guitar teachers at our store have 30 +
students, he has less than 10 - despite the fact that he plays better than
all the other guys combined. He just waits around for that 1 guy in 100 who
wants to learn jazz guitar.

OTOH, I spent about a year studying VERY advanced Jazz Theory wit a GUITAR
teacher. He had never played a bass or taught bass, but he knew enough as a
musician to help me apply his concepts to the instrument.

Being a great player and being a knowledgeable teacher are mutually
exclusive IMO. If my bass teacher wasn't at least semi-aware that the 5th
string is a B from reading Bass Player during his breaks, I'd be more than a
little wary of taking lessons with him. Just saying.

--
Check out my band, West Eats Meat http://www.myspace.com/westeatsmeat

My Homepage, Back By Popular Demand: http://www.jmsjazz.com

"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it
comes out."

- Bill Hicks

"jeffb" <jb@no.net> wrote in message news:4640033a.183885796@shawnews...
> On Tue, 8 May 2007 00:44:47 -0400, "js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> They've been around for 30+ years, I don't think they count as 'new
> >> fangled' any more.
> >
> >I'm glad some else pointed that out besides me. Seems like that's a
basic
> >thing to know when teaching bass...
>
> slightly odd to be sure but really has nothing to do with his ability
> to impart what he _does_ know.
>
> i met an older guy a few years ago playing with some fairly well known
> act (john hiatt mebey?..hmmm. someone like that) who had the same
> '50's slab pre he'd played since he was a kid...only bass he'd ever
> owned...didn't give a shit about gear. wouldn't surprise me if he
> didn't know how a 5 was tuned. well spoken, personable and played his
> ass off. a kid'd be lucky to have a guy like that as a teacher.
>

Derek Tearne

05-08-2007, 03:44 AM

jeffb <jb@no.net> wrote:

> i met an older guy a few years ago playing with some fairly well known
> act (john hiatt mebey?..hmmm. someone like that) who had the same
> '50's slab pre he'd played since he was a kid...only bass he'd ever
> owned...didn't give a shit about gear. wouldn't surprise me if he
> didn't know how a 5 was tuned.

That's fair enough.

However, calling a 5 string bass 'new fangled' in 2007 is a bit like
wondering if it's worth switching to colour television from black and
white.

For all intents and purposes the bass guitar as we know it dates back to
1951 (although it was actually invented in the 1930s).

The 5 and 6 string bass date back to 1974 and 1975 respectively.
That's over thirty years ago.

5+ string basses have now co-existed with 4 string basses for a fair bit
longer than 4 string basses struggled on alone.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

Derek Tearne

05-08-2007, 04:03 AM

Gary Rosen <garymrosen@comcast.net> wrote:

> Below low B??? IOW below the lowest note (A) on a full 88-key piano???

The low B on a bass isn't lower than the lowest note on a full key
piano. There's nearly an octave further to go.

> Two questions:
> 1) Who makes a string for that?

SIT among other companies.

There are a fair number of manufacturers who make low F# basses and a
few go down to C# - which is about the lowest note on a piano. Google
on sub-contra bass. Also check out http://www.conklinguitars.com/ and
adler guitars (their website seems to have been misappropriated sadly).

Also check out this guy http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/ loads of stuff about
extending the range of the bass downwards.

> 2) What speaker can reproduce it?

I'm saying nothing at this point on the grounds that the newsgroup is
currently being frequented by several people who will argue that this is
all impossible and/or that attempting to reproduce these frequencies is
the real cause of the damage to the pentagon on 9/11.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

ptooner

05-08-2007, 10:17 AM

"Gary Rosen" <garymrosen@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jZ6dne8k266Hh93bnZ2dnUVZ_ruknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> "Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1hxsuov.byss8c8d888dN%derek@url.co.nz...
>> Steve Freides <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Old fart that I am, I'm getting used to the fact that one of my students
>>> has a 5-string electric bass. He keeps the fifth string tuned to a low
>>> B (just another 4th below, like all the other strings are a 4th apart).
>>> I assume this is the standard tuning for 5-string basses now - is that
>>> right?
>>
>> That's the most common tuning for a 5 string bass, although the earliest
>> examples were often E-A-D-G-C to allow access to higher notes for
>> soloing, primarily in Jazz contexts.
>>
>>> What is the standard turning for a 6-string, e.g., is the additional
>>> string lower yet again?
>>
>> That is increasingly being done, however most 6 strings are tuned BEADGC
>> to gain in both the lower and higher registers.
>
>
> Below low B??? IOW below the lowest note (A) on a full 88-key piano???
> Two questions:
> 1) Who makes a string for that?
> 2) What speaker can reproduce it?
>
> - Gary Rosen
>

3) What ear can hear it?
Gerry
>

ptooner

05-08-2007, 10:51 AM

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxt5hm.195lcav485pbnN%derek@url.co.nz...
> Gary Rosen <garymrosen@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Below low B??? IOW below the lowest note (A) on a full 88-key piano???
>
> The low B on a bass isn't lower than the lowest note on a full key
> piano. There's nearly an octave further to go.
>
>> Two questions:
>> 1) Who makes a string for that?
>
> SIT among other companies.
>
> There are a fair number of manufacturers who make low F# basses and a
> few go down to C# - which is about the lowest note on a piano. Google
> on sub-contra bass. Also check out http://www.conklinguitars.com/ and
> adler guitars (their website seems to have been misappropriated sadly).

Nope, the lowest note on a piano is A. (31hz) There is ONE piano that goes
down to F#, it's called the Bosendorfer imperial. Although no music is
written to go that low, they (Bosendorfer) maintain that the lower strings
produce a sympathetic vibration with the other higher strings when in use.
In fact it's nothing but advertising hack.
I did read all your links with great interest. No one agrees with your
assessment that the "The low B on a bass isn't lower than the lowest note on
a full key piano. There's nearly an octave further to go." Actually there
are only two more notes to go. Now I'm not an expert on basses, but I AM an
expert on pianos.

>
> Also check out this guy http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/ loads of stuff about
> extending the range of the bass downwards.
>
>> 2) What speaker can reproduce it?
>
> I'm saying nothing at this point on the grounds that the newsgroup is
> currently being frequented by several people who will argue that this is
> all impossible and/or that attempting to reproduce these frequencies is
> the real cause of the damage to the pentagon on 9/11.
>
> --- Derek
>

Actually, your Jauqoii guy has quite a bit to say about the difficulties
involved on the website your reference.

Gerry
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>

Javier

05-08-2007, 11:02 AM

Gary Rosen <garymrosen@comcast.net> wrote:
> Below low B??? IOW below the lowest note (A) on a full 88-key piano???
> Two questions:
> 1) Who makes a string for that?
> 2) What speaker can reproduce it?

Y'all will have to ask John Turner ;)

(who has a F#-B-E-A-D-G-C monster)

Brian Running

05-08-2007, 11:23 AM

> The low B on a bass isn't lower than the lowest note on a full key
> piano. There's nearly an octave further to go.

Maybe in New Zealand, but not elsewhere. Remember, bass guitar sounds
an octave lower than its music is written.

Oci-One Kanubi

05-08-2007, 11:48 AM

On May 8, 2:44 am, d...@url.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote:
> jeffb <j...@no.net> wrote:
> > i met an older guy a few years ago playing with some fairly well known
> > act (john hiatt mebey?..hmmm. someone like that) who had the same
> > '50's slab pre he'd played since he was a kid...only bass he'd ever
> > owned...didn't give a shit about gear. wouldn't surprise me if he
> > didn't know how a 5 was tuned.
>
> That's fair enough.
>
> However, calling a 5 string bass 'new fangled' in 2007 is a bit like
> wondering if it's worth switching to colour television from black and
> white.
>
> For all intents and purposes the bass guitar as we know it dates back to
> 1951 (although it was actually invented in the 1930s).
>
> The 5 and 6 string bass date back to 1974 and 1975 respectively.
> That's over thirty years ago.

Derek, didn't Jet Harris play a 6-string after he split from the
Shadows in 1963 or '64 to start his own group so he could be the lead
instrument? He released one or two singles, but he sooooo should have
stuck with the Shadows!

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
.. Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
.. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Steve Freides

05-08-2007, 11:54 AM

"js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46401c1b$0$15182$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Honestly, it depends on what you're coming in to learn.
>
> If you're an advanced guy and want some polishing or a young guy and
> want
> the VERY basics, these guys are good to go to. Hell, If I was
> interested in
> bluegrass bass, My first step would be to go up into the mountains and
> ask
> around for some Good ol Boy with an 8th grade education...
>
> Thing is, If you're in between beginner and pro, that cancels out 90%
> of
> your teaching base
>
>
> I've got a good friend who is the classic "middle aged jazz guitarist"
> type.
> He has NO concept of rock music, or even anything as basic as bending
> a
> note. He can't transcribe say, a Jimi Hendrix song off the record,
> much less
> a Green Day song.
>
> Consequently, while the other guitar teachers at our store have 30 +
> students, he has less than 10 - despite the fact that he plays better
> than
> all the other guys combined. He just waits around for that 1 guy in
> 100 who
> wants to learn jazz guitar.
>
>
> OTOH, I spent about a year studying VERY advanced Jazz Theory wit a
> GUITAR
> teacher. He had never played a bass or taught bass, but he knew enough
> as a
> musician to help me apply his concepts to the instrument.
>
> Being a great player and being a knowledgeable teacher are mutually
> exclusive IMO. If my bass teacher wasn't at least semi-aware that the
> 5th
> string is a B from reading Bass Player during his breaks, I'd be more
> than a
> little wary of taking lessons with him. Just saying.

Thanks, everyone. By way of background, I grew up as a jazz guitar
player, switched to classical guitar in college, then voice, then choral
conducting, and ended up teaching Theory, Ear-Training, and the like at
Mannes College of Music in NYC from roughly the late 80's to the late
90's. I teach mostly guitar but I do play bass and I do teach it.

If they want someone to show them how to play Stairway to Heaven, if
they want to learn to play but not learn to read music, etc., I send
them elsewhere. First lessons are always free, and after explaining all
this on the phone, I feel like the first lesson is a good chance for
prospective students to see if they feel like what I've got to offer is
something they want to pay for. I do my best to give my students the
tools to play music I've never heard of - that's my idea of a job well
done.

Everyone's different, not saying my way is better or worse, it's just
what I offer, and I have no plans to start reading Bass Player. :)

-S-

Benj

05-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Steve Freides wrote:
>
> Thanks, everyone. By way of background, I grew up as a jazz guitar
> player, switched to classical guitar in college, then voice, then choral
> conducting, and ended up teaching Theory, Ear-Training, and the like at
> Mannes College of Music in NYC from roughly the late 80's to the late
> 90's. I teach mostly guitar but I do play bass and I do teach it.

Since you are a guitar player, nobody mentioned that while for a 6
string bass (common in jazz for soloing) the standard tuning is BEADGC
there is an undercurrent of jazz bass players, usually also guitar
players or former guitar players (you know couldn't cut it on guitar
and were demoted to bass! :-) who tune BEADGB. The idea for that is
to tap into their guitar chord knowledge to be applied to upper
register bass soloing.

As a guitar player you probably also know that there is an
undercurrent among guitar players as well who use an "alternate
tuning" all in fourths similar to a six string bass. (starting on E
however) The idea of that is that like a standard bass one can move
patterns all over the neck without changing their shape. The downside
is that this tuning make the formation of certain chords next to
impossible.

Benj

Benj

05-08-2007, 01:47 PM

ptooner wrote:
>
> > Two questions:
> > 1) Who makes a string for that?
> > 2) What speaker can reproduce it?
> >
> 3) What ear can hear it?
> Gerry

First question is really valid! I've played a bass with a low F# and
even though I am a huge fan of "real"* basses, I wasn't impressed.
String seemed REALLY floppy and tone was nil! Even worse, the most
important thing, namely playing cross-neck patterns at higher frets,
showed that the tone of the F# string totally sucked compared to the
same notes on other strings. Feh! I strongly suspected the problem
was an F# string that wasn't filling th bill.

The last two questions, however, are a different matter. Almost all
the "tone" in your bass comes from harmonics not from the fundamental.
So the bottom line is you CAN get a really good "tone" out of a B
string even if your cab is rolling off the low end like mad! And
chances of that being the situation are really good unless your rig
has one of those gigantic speakers that used to fill the stage behind
the movie screen in older theaters!

Benj

* All "real" basses have 5 or more strings!

Steve Freides

05-08-2007, 02:14 PM

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1178641848.433673.26940@l77g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Steve Freides wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, everyone. By way of background, I grew up as a jazz guitar
>> player, switched to classical guitar in college, then voice, then choral
>> conducting, and ended up teaching Theory, Ear-Training, and the like at
>> Mannes College of Music in NYC from roughly the late 80's to the late
>> 90's. I teach mostly guitar but I do play bass and I do teach it.
>
> Since you are a guitar player, nobody mentioned that while for a 6
> string bass (common in jazz for soloing) the standard tuning is BEADGC
> there is an undercurrent of jazz bass players, usually also guitar
> players or former guitar players (you know couldn't cut it on guitar
> and were demoted to bass! :-) who tune BEADGB. The idea for that is
> to tap into their guitar chord knowledge to be applied to upper
> register bass soloing.
>
> As a guitar player you probably also know that there is an
> undercurrent among guitar players as well who use an "alternate
> tuning" all in fourths similar to a six string bass. (starting on E
> however) The idea of that is that like a standard bass one can move
> patterns all over the neck without changing their shape. The downside
> is that this tuning make the formation of certain chords next to
> impossible.

For obvious reasons, a bass tuned like a guitar would be a great tuning for
a lot of guitar players, but it seems the instruments nor the strings
wouldn't like that. Has anyone, e.g., taken a six-string bass, moved all
the strings lower by one - throw away the 6th string, use the 5th as your
last and tune it to E, and then get some sort of custom string for a high E?

-S-

Brian Running

05-08-2007, 03:06 PM

> For obvious reasons, a bass tuned like a guitar would be a great tuning for
> a lot of guitar players, but it seems the instruments nor the strings
> wouldn't like that. Has anyone, e.g., taken a six-string bass, moved all
> the strings lower by one - throw away the 6th string, use the 5th as your
> last and tune it to E, and then get some sort of custom string for a high E?

There's already a big problem with guitarists-turned-bassists who refuse
to acknowledge the drastically-different roles the two instruments play
in music, and the drastically-different mentalities required to play
them right. Every guitarist in the world thinks he can play bass better
than any bass player, when in fact, their attempts are usually comical
and musically just-plain-horrible. The very last thing we need is
basses that make it even easier for guitarists to play bass just like
guitar.

Brian Running

05-08-2007, 03:22 PM

> There's already a big problem with guitarists-turned-bassists who refuse
> to acknowledge the drastically-different roles the two instruments play
> in music, and the drastically-different mentalities required to play
> them right. Every guitarist in the world thinks he can play bass better
> than any bass player, when in fact, their attempts are usually comical
> and musically just-plain-horrible. The very last thing we need is
> basses that make it even easier for guitarists to play bass just like
> guitar.

I forgot this: :-)

Not tryin' to start anything, you know...

Steve Freides

05-08-2007, 03:48 PM

"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:Md30i.17070$YL5.16829@newssvr29.news.prodigy. net...
>> There's already a big problem with guitarists-turned-bassists who refuse
>> to acknowledge the drastically-different roles the two instruments play
>> in music, and the drastically-different mentalities required to play them
>> right. Every guitarist in the world thinks he can play bass better than
>> any bass player, when in fact, their attempts are usually comical and
>> musically just-plain-horrible. The very last thing we need is basses
>> that make it even easier for guitarists to play bass just like guitar.
>
> I forgot this: :-)
>
> Not tryin' to start anything, you know...

[best Austrian accent]: "No problemo, dude."

I hear ya, and you're right - it's a very different thing. One of the big
reasons I enjoy playing bass is because it's so different than playing
guitar but you can still leverage the dexterity, knowing where the notes
are, etc., from being a guitar player.

-S-

housemouse

05-08-2007, 05:26 PM

On May 8, 1:14 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> "Benj" <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1178641848.433673.26940@l77g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Steve Freides wrote:
>
> >> Thanks, everyone. By way of background, I grew up as a jazz guitar
> >> player, switched to classical guitar in college, then voice, then choral
> >> conducting, and ended up teaching Theory, Ear-Training, and the like at
> >> Mannes College of Music in NYC from roughly the late 80's to the late
> >> 90's. I teach mostly guitar but I do play bass and I do teach it.
>
> > Since you are a guitar player, nobody mentioned that while for a 6
> > string bass (common in jazz for soloing) the standard tuning is BEADGC
> > there is an undercurrent of jazz bass players, usually also guitar
> > players or former guitar players (you know couldn't cut it on guitar
> > and were demoted to bass! :-) who tune BEADGB. The idea for that is
> > to tap into their guitar chord knowledge to be applied to upper
> > register bass soloing.
>
> > As a guitar player you probably also know that there is an
> > undercurrent among guitar players as well who use an "alternate
> > tuning" all in fourths similar to a six string bass. (starting on E
> > however) The idea of that is that like a standard bass one can move
> > patterns all over the neck without changing their shape. The downside
> > is that this tuning make the formation of certain chords next to
> > impossible.
>
> For obvious reasons, a bass tuned like a guitar would be a great tuning for
> a lot of guitar players, but it seems the instruments nor the strings
> wouldn't like that. Has anyone, e.g., taken a six-string bass, moved all
> the strings lower by one - throw away the 6th string, use the 5th as your
> last and tune it to E, and then get some sort of custom string for a high E?
>
> -S

Sure, there are several instruments that are made to do exactly that.
Mostly they are 30" scaled instruments.
Myself, I have never been happy with one of those, but they are pretty
cool looking.

I play guitar also, and whenever I get my hands on one of those
things, I end up doing guitar things on them. The strings are close
together, and hard to play with fingers, so I end up using a pick,
bending strings, and all that stuff. It's not good.

I've actually tried what you are saying on an Ibanez 6 string bass. I
got a really high string like you would use on one of those conklin 7
strings, and tuned it E to E. I never got used to it. I think having
the low B is a lot more handy, but that's just me. I guess if I had
stuck with that tuning for a few months it would have been easy - but
I'm not sure I need to really move all my guitar stuff over to bass.
Does anyone really need to play the solo to Iron Man or Johnny B Goode
down an octave?

If I was going to get a 6 string, I'd want that low B for sure. A 7
string might be sort of cool. I have to admit that being in a rock
band, doing covers and the occassional original, it is hard for me to
fit anything in that I couldn't do with a 4 string w/ hipshot D
tuner...

Derek Tearne

05-08-2007, 07:02 PM

Oci-One Kanubi <rhopley@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On May 8, 2:44 am, d...@url.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote:
1951 (although it was actually invented in the 1930s).
> >
> > The 5 and 6 string bass date back to 1974 and 1975 respectively.
> > That's over thirty years ago.
>
> Derek, didn't Jet Harris play a 6-string after he split from the
> Shadows in 1963 or '64 to start his own group so he could be the lead
> instrument? He released one or two singles, but he sooooo should have
> stuck with the Shadows!

It's one of those confusing little issues. When people talk about 5+
string basses they usually mean something that has a similar scale
length and string spacing to a four string fender style electric bass.

In this regard the history really goes back to Jimmy Johnson and Anthony
Jackson in the mid 70's

However, there were several different 6 string basses starting from the
mid 50s which, like the Fender bass VI, looked exactly like slightly
over sized guitars. They were short scale and with narrow string
spacing.

These were usually tuned either EADGBE exactly like a guitar or perhaps
ADGCBbA (baritone guitar) - they never really caught on but also never
really went away. You can still buy reissue Fender Bass VIs and also
Schecter Hellcat VIs. In an ideal world with no confusing nomenclature
these instruments would be called 'bass guitars' because that's exactly
what they are, and the things most people call 'bass guitars' would be
called something different.

Some fairly famous bass lines were played on those instruments including
a lot of Jack Bruces work with Cream.

So, it would be pedantically accurate to respond to folks calling 6
string basses 'new fangled' with a derisive snort and mention of the
'danelectro baritone' from 1956 - but that would be churlish.

There was also a Fender bass V introduced sometime in the 1960s, which
had 5 strings and bass like string spacing (good so far!) but only *15
frets*. Clearly the folks at Fender were of the opinion that bass
players only deserved or desired a very limited supply of notes.

Not surprisingly this instrument didn't catch on.

It was the instruments made in the 70s by Alembic (for Jimmy Johnson and
others) and Ken Smith (for Anthony Jackson) that caught on.

Incidentally these were completely independent developments, so there
was no gradual evolution from 4 to 5 to 6 - 6 strings is the number
Anthony thought he needed and so that's what he had built. He probably
didn't even know 5 string basses existed when he commissioned his 6
string.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

Derek Tearne

05-08-2007, 07:09 PM

ptooner <someguy@onthe.net> wrote:

> Nope, the lowest note on a piano is A. (31hz) There is ONE piano that goes
> down to F#, it's called the Bosendorfer imperial. Although no music is
> written to go that low, they (Bosendorfer) maintain that the lower strings
> produce a sympathetic vibration with the other higher strings when in use.
> In fact it's nothing but advertising hack.

My mistake, I misremembered the description of the 11 string adler
monster which was meant to cover the range of a grand piano - but as the
adler site has disappeared I couldn't check that.

Bosendorfer obviously use the same advertising hacks as the chaps who
make sub woofers/sub bass synths and the like for clubs.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

Gary Rosen

05-09-2007, 03:19 AM

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxt5hm.195lcav485pbnN%derek@url.co.nz...
> Gary Rosen <garymrosen@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Below low B??? IOW below the lowest note (A) on a full 88-key piano???
>
> The low B on a bass isn't lower than the lowest note on a full key
> piano. There's nearly an octave further to go.

Low B is one whole step above the lowest note (A) on a piano. I
was referring to a string lower than the low B..

- Gary Rosen

Benj

05-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Derek Tearne wrote:
>
> So, it would be pedantically accurate to respond to folks calling 6
> string basses 'new fangled' with a derisive snort and mention of the
> 'danelectro baritone' from 1956 - but that would be churlish.

Holy COW!!!
Hey Derek, take it easy on the SAT words! Please remember you are
posting to a BASS group with a lot of lurking Americans! Vocabulary
at this level will only create confusion!

Benj

Brian Running

05-09-2007, 08:14 PM

>> So, it would be pedantically accurate to respond to folks calling 6
>> string basses 'new fangled' with a derisive snort and mention of the
>> 'danelectro baritone' from 1956 - but that would be churlish.
>
> Holy COW!!!
> Hey Derek, take it easy on the SAT words! Please remember you are
> posting to a BASS group with a lot of lurking Americans! Vocabulary
> at this level will only create confusion!

So, what was it sent you over the edge, Benj? Fangled? Snort?

timbo

05-09-2007, 11:17 PM

On 2007-05-09, Brian Running <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote:
>>> So, it would be pedantically accurate to respond to folks calling 6
>>> string basses 'new fangled' with a derisive snort and mention of the
>>> 'danelectro baritone' from 1956 - but that would be churlish.
>>
>> Holy COW!!!
>> Hey Derek, take it easy on the SAT words! Please remember you are
>> posting to a BASS group with a lot of lurking Americans! Vocabulary
>> at this level will only create confusion!
>
> So, what was it sent you over the edge, Benj? Fangled? Snort?

he had me at "would"...

cheers,

timbo.

--

http://www.skyrockats.com

Derek Tearne

05-09-2007, 11:48 PM

timbo <tim@nospam-number26.org> wrote:

> On 2007-05-09, Brian Running <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote:
> >>> So, it would be pedantically accurate to respond to folks calling 6
> >>> string basses 'new fangled' with a derisive snort and mention of the
> >>> 'danelectro baritone' from 1956 - but that would be churlish.
> >>
> >> Holy COW!!!
> >> Hey Derek, take it easy on the SAT words! Please remember you are
> >> posting to a BASS group with a lot of lurking Americans! Vocabulary
> >> at this level will only create confusion!
> >
> > So, what was it sent you over the edge, Benj? Fangled? Snort?
>
> he had me at "would"...

Thank goodness I didn't use 'somewhat churlish' as was my original
intent.

--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

Ballroom Dancer

05-10-2007, 01:22 PM

"ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
news:Vf%%h.33538$qB4.19999@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
> http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
> Nope, the lowest note on a piano is A. (31hz) There is ONE piano that
> goes down to F#, it's called the Bosendorfer imperial. Although no music
> is written to go that low, they (Bosendorfer) maintain that the lower
> strings produce a sympathetic vibration with the other higher strings when
> in use. In fact it's nothing but advertising hack.

I wouldn't call it an advertising hack. One of the things most difficult to
match with an electronic piano is the effect of sympathetic vibration of
other strings when the dampers are not in contact with the strings. I've
been playing a Steinway B 7'1 grand in class, what a sound.

I serviced electronic instruments for 30 years, including Rodgers organs.
Rodgers made a number of installs in large cathedral pipe organs of
electronic pedals, pitched at 64' (meaning that the low C pedal was only 8
hz - a 32' Bourdon flute pedal sounds at 16 hz). The sub-sonics cannot be
heard, but add a fundamental that is felt. I personally installed a Rodgers
900 series instrument in a 4,000 seat auditorium. I could block on the low C
32' Bourdon pedal, and walk anywhere in the auditorium, feel the back of a
chair, and feel the sound vibrating the chair, even though the note by
itself was so low in pitch that I could not hear it. Power for the pedal
channel of the organ was supplied by three 100w rms amplifiers, each feeding
a cabinet which had one ElectroVoice 30" speaker, each cabinet was
approximately 7' high, 5' deep, and 9' wide. Five additional amplifiers
feeding combinations of 6x9 and 5" speakers were used for the higher
pitches, with one additional amplifier feeding a large horn for a single
stop, the "Trumpet deFete" - this one stop was as loud with a single note as
the entire remainder of the instrument playing full chords.

Scientific research has shown that sub-sonic pitches at low volume levels
affect mood, and at higher volume levels can become a weapon with power to
kill.

Another time, I compared the sound of a pair of Baldwin grand pianos in the
lower register, one was a standard 5'8" and the other was a 9 foot concert
grand - again a huge difference in sound.

Bass guitar wise, the low B string of an electric bass with BEADG tuning is
pitched at the lowest B of a standard 88-key piano, meaning that there are
two possible lower notes, the A# and the A note. Admittedly, unless one
tours in an 18-wheeler with plenty of roadies, generating the fundamental
35hz note of the low B at a really high level is problematic. Fortunately,
the strings do not produce just a simple sine wave note (all fundamental),
but produce a number of harmonic pitches (at higher frequencies), so we can
get along quite nicely without amplifier and speaker combinations that are
truly flat response down to 35hz. Most of the "punch" in bass playing is in
the spectrum range above 100Hz.

Another difference is in the way that music is written. Standard notation
for bass guitar is written an octave higher than the instrument sounds,
whereas piano notation would be either an octave lower, or notated as "8va",
an abbreviation meaning play an octave below (when notated below the music -
notated above the music is an octave higher).

Jim

ptooner

05-10-2007, 07:43 PM

"Ballroom Dancer" <abc@def.ghi> wrote in message
news:2FH0i.138385$mJ1.54586@newsfe22.lga...
>
> "ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
> news:Vf%%h.33538$qB4.19999@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>> http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
>> Nope, the lowest note on a piano is A. (31hz) There is ONE piano that
>> goes down to F#, it's called the Bosendorfer imperial. Although no music
>> is written to go that low, they (Bosendorfer) maintain that the lower
>> strings produce a sympathetic vibration with the other higher strings
>> when in use. In fact it's nothing but advertising hack.
>
> I wouldn't call it an advertising hack. One of the things most difficult
> to match with an electronic piano is the effect of sympathetic vibration
> of other strings when the dampers are not in contact with the strings.
> I've been playing a Steinway B 7'1 grand in class, what a sound.

First, pardon me for cutting a lot of your post. Let me say we have a lot
of similar experience. As for Steinway, there's litereally nothing like a
D. The B's aren't bad, but play one of their Concert Grands! ;-) FWIW,
to me the greatest Steinway - and greatest piano - was the early model A.
The one with the 85 keys. It had three bridges instead of two which gave it
a fantastic section in the area where most pianos suffer from the stringing
change over. As for organs, I too have done some Rodgers. I remember the
one I installed in First Baptist Church of Jacksonville which had originally
24 100 watt amps. It was the first big setup I dealt with that used digital
output - that is there was no tone generation in the console. It had a
single coax that carried the signal in a format similar to midi to the tone
generators which were located in another part of the building. Shortly
after the inital installation (a year or so) they decided to add a few ranks
of pipes. Did you ever try to tune pipes and electronics together? ;-)
Speaking of pipes, I played an old tracker in Italy that had a 32' pedal
rank. You could sure feel that thing.

Gerry

Mike Hanson

05-11-2007, 03:15 AM

On May 11, 12:22 am, "Ballroom Dancer" <a...@def.ghi> wrote:

> 35hz note of the low B

Nitpicking an otherwise very interesting post: low B is just under 31
Hz (although I don't know for how long this has been standard).

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
--
Mike.

Ballroom Dancer

05-11-2007, 02:08 PM

"ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
news:DeN0i.153$ub.79@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>

> First, pardon me for cutting a lot of your post. Let me say we have a lot
> of similar experience. As for Steinway, there's litereally nothing like a
> D. The B's aren't bad, but play one of their Concert Grands! ;-)
> FWIW, to me the greatest Steinway - and greatest piano - was the early
> model A. The one with the 85 keys. It had three bridges instead of two
> which gave it a fantastic section in the area where most pianos suffer
> from the stringing change over. As for organs, I too have done some
> Rodgers. I remember the one I installed in First Baptist Church of
> Jacksonville which had originally 24 100 watt amps. It was the first big
> setup I dealt with that used digital output - that is there was no tone
> generation in the console. It had a single coax that carried the signal
> in a format similar to midi to the tone generators which were located in
> another part of the building. Shortly after the inital installation (a
> year or so) they decided to add a few ranks of pipes. Did you ever try to
> tune pipes and electronics together? ;-)
> Speaking of pipes, I played an old tracker in Italy that had a 32'
> pedal rank. You could sure feel that thing.
>
> Gerry
I did the electronics on the Rodgers, right up to the air valve, but I don't
know how to tune or voice the pipes. I've worked on several of the units
that used a coaxial cable to send the digital signals, a LOT better than the
old stuff that was all parallel wired. I got out of it about 1997, when the
market just got to the point that staying busy meant covering more than a
couple of adjoining sections of states (like southeastern VA and
northeastern NC). This was before Rodgers started building the Trillium
series.
I've been in First Baptist in Jacksonville, I designed a broadcast quality
TV control room and studio setup for Southeastern Assembly of God in
Jacksonville (they had a new sanctuary on the drawing board at the time -
they were located in a building that used to be a VW dealership, having to
run three Sunday monring services.

My most favorite Rodgers to play was the small two-manual mixed pipe and
electronic organ that they made small enough to fit in a home (if you had a
high enough ceiling). Two ranks of flutes, two ranks of principals, rest of
it electronics. The closest pipe was about 2 - 1/2 feet away when playing,
right in the face!
I don't have enough room at home (nor enough funds) for a Rodgers or
Steinway. But - my Kurzweil K2661 and PC2 do a nice job of keeping my
fingers busy. I'm still occasionally playing the bass, but not as much. My
granddaughter, wife, and I are all three taking piano lessons - I've got a
lot more respect for the instrument than I used to have.
Jim

>

Ballroom Dancer

05-11-2007, 02:10 PM

"Mike Hanson" <hanson_mike@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178864138.978690.120280@n59g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
> On May 11, 12:22 am, "Ballroom Dancer" <a...@def.ghi> wrote:
>
>> 35hz note of the low B
>
> Nitpicking an otherwise very interesting post: low B is just under 31
> Hz (although I don't know for how long this has been standard).
>
> http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
> --
> Mike.
>
Duh! Hit self side of the head. Low C is 32 Hz, B is below, not above. I
was thinking about how speakers are rated. :)
Jim

ptooner

05-11-2007, 06:39 PM

> I did the electronics on the Rodgers, right up to the air valve, but I
> don't
> know how to tune or voice the pipes. I've worked on several of the units
> that used a coaxial cable to send the digital signals, a LOT better than
> the old stuff that was all parallel wired. I got out of it about 1997,
> when the market just got to the point that staying busy meant covering
> more than a couple of adjoining sections of states (like southeastern VA
> and northeastern NC). This was before Rodgers started building the
> Trillium series.

I got out of that line in 1985 or 6. And old and dear friend (David Jones)
got me involved in it because I was both a piano player and a
computer/electronics expert. Dave and I worked basically north east
Florida.

> I've been in First Baptist in Jacksonville, I designed a broadcast quality
> TV control room and studio setup for Southeastern Assembly of God in
> Jacksonville (they had a new sanctuary on the drawing board at the time -
> they were located in a building that used to be a VW dealership, having to
> run three Sunday monring services.

I retired back to the Jax area 3 years ago, but I'm afraid I don't know that
one.

>
> My most favorite Rodgers to play was the small two-manual mixed pipe and
> electronic organ that they made small enough to fit in a home (if you had
> a high enough ceiling). Two ranks of flutes, two ranks of principals, rest
> of it electronics. The closest pipe was about 2 - 1/2 feet away when
> playing, right in the face!

Damn, I bet that was fun!

> I don't have enough room at home (nor enough funds) for a Rodgers or
> Steinway. But - my Kurzweil K2661 and PC2 do a nice job of keeping my
> fingers busy. I'm still occasionally playing the bass, but not as much. My
> granddaughter, wife, and I are all three taking piano lessons - I've got a
> lot more respect for the instrument than I used to have.
> Jim

I have a Wurlitzer 6'1" (made by Young Chang) as my home piano, but probably
spend more time on my Yamaha P80/Roland Juno D stack. I am new to bass, but
it's more or less full time now. Speaking of family:
http://bluerivertravelers.com/ - that's me on the right with the bass, and
the girl nearest me with the guitar is my daughter. ;-)
Gerry

Ballroom Dancer

05-12-2007, 11:32 AM

"ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
news:Do51i.375$O9.347@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>

> I have a Wurlitzer 6'1" (made by Young Chang) as my home piano, but
> probably spend more time on my Yamaha P80/Roland Juno D stack. I am new
> to bass, but it's more or less full time now. Speaking of family:
> http://bluerivertravelers.com/ - that's me on the right with the bass,
> and the girl nearest me with the guitar is my daughter. ;-)
> Gerry
>
>
Some fine sounding music on your site. There is a local amateur country,
bluegrass, and gospel group that plays free a couple of hours every Friday
night at the local mall. On Saturday night, another group gets together
there that does bluegrass - but they are so traditional, they don't want ANY
amplified instrument, even a bass.
I join the Friday night group occasionally, they also play at various events
during the year locally. One of our fiddle players used to be in the group
backing up Patsy Cline. The group has a good bassist, playing old school,
Fender Mustang with flatwounds. When I play with them, I play 21 chord
Autoharp (electric pickup into a tiny amplifier so I can be heard) or
tremelo harmonica.

Most of my playing out now is with the church band, Kurzweil K2000VP and eMu
keyboard into a notebook computer running Native Instruments B4 software
(Hammond B3 sound).

From your website, it sounds like your family is right where it needs to
be - close relationship. You are probably as glad to no longer be living
near D.C. as I am to no longer be living near Norfolk - Virginia Beach. I've
stepped back from full-time work to partial retirement - I don't want to
fully retire, but it is amazing how much time during the week can be taken
up doing things that are enjoyable.

Jim

ptooner

05-12-2007, 12:25 PM

"Ballroom Dancer" <abc@def.ghi> wrote in message
news:qek1i.138759$mJ1.78515@newsfe22.lga...
>
> "ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
> news:Do51i.375$O9.347@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>
>> I have a Wurlitzer 6'1" (made by Young Chang) as my home piano, but
>> probably spend more time on my Yamaha P80/Roland Juno D stack. I am new
>> to bass, but it's more or less full time now. Speaking of family:
>> http://bluerivertravelers.com/ - that's me on the right with the bass,
>> and the girl nearest me with the guitar is my daughter. ;-)
>> Gerry
>>
>>
> Some fine sounding music on your site.

Well, thanks a bunch. ;-) Did you listen to these?:
http://www.gerrygeddings.com/nonamekeymusic.htm They are my daughter's
vocals.

There is a local amateur country,
> bluegrass, and gospel group that plays free a couple of hours every Friday
> night at the local mall. On Saturday night, another group gets together
> there that does bluegrass - but they are so traditional, they don't want
> ANY amplified instrument, even a bass.
> I join the Friday night group occasionally, they also play at various
> events during the year locally. One of our fiddle players used to be in
> the group backing up Patsy Cline. The group has a good bassist, playing
> old school, Fender Mustang with flatwounds. When I play with them, I play
> 21 chord Autoharp (electric pickup into a tiny amplifier so I can be
> heard) or tremelo harmonica.
>
> Most of my playing out now is with the church band, Kurzweil K2000VP and
> eMu keyboard into a notebook computer running Native Instruments B4
> software (Hammond B3 sound).

I've heard good things bout the NI B4 and I confess I haven't found anything
that suits me to replace a real B3. I am a little hesitant about depending
on soft synths live, though. How long have you been doing it and what is
your experience with it? I'm using a Roland JV1010 module for my organs at
the moment but am not really happy with it.

>
> From your website, it sounds like your family is right where it needs to
> be - close relationship. You are probably as glad to no longer be living
> near D.C. as I am to no longer be living near Norfolk - Virginia Beach.
> I've stepped back from full-time work to partial retirement - I don't want
> to fully retire, but it is amazing how much time during the week can be
> taken up doing things that are enjoyable.

All very true. I'm fully retired except for music and that takes up a bunch
of my time. I just finished the newest cd for the band this Wednesday and
am hard at work on a gospel-only one. Today I'm headed over to GC to pick
up my new bass.

Gerry
>
> Jim
>

Ballroom Dancer

05-12-2007, 04:35 PM

"ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
news:s%k1i.742$nh.644@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

> Well, thanks a bunch. ;-) Did you listen to these?:
> http://www.gerrygeddings.com/nonamekeymusic.htm They are my daughter's
> vocals.
>

>> Most of my playing out now is with the church band, Kurzweil K2000VP and
>> eMu keyboard into a notebook computer running Native Instruments B4
>> software (Hammond B3 sound).
>
> I've heard good things bout the NI B4 and I confess I haven't found
> anything that suits me to replace a real B3. I am a little hesitant about
> depending on soft synths live, though. How long have you been doing it
> and what is your experience with it? I'm using a Roland JV1010 module
> for my organs at the moment but am not really happy with it.
>
>>
>> From your website, it sounds like your family is right where it needs to
>> be - close relationship. You are probably as glad to no longer be living
>> near D.C. as I am to no longer be living near Norfolk - Virginia Beach.
>> I've stepped back from full-time work to partial retirement - I don't
>> want to fully retire, but it is amazing how much time during the week can
>> be taken up doing things that are enjoyable.
>
> All very true. I'm fully retired except for music and that takes up a
> bunch of my time. I just finished the newest cd for the band this
> Wednesday and am hard at work on a gospel-only one. Today I'm headed over
> to GC to pick up my new bass.
>
> Gerry

I haven't yet listened, but I will later today. I've got to go out for
several hours in about 1/2 hr. The Native Instruments B4 that I have is the
first version, and it does a very good job of simulating, if put with the
proper computer equipment. I use a 1Ghz Pentium III notebook with 576mb of
RAM. More important, a good ASIO audio system is needed to reduce latency to
a usable amount - I'm using an eMu 1616M, which plugs into the PCMCIA slot
in the notebook. The software on screen looks like looking down at a B3
console. The drawbars can be set to any of a couple of hundred presets, or
moved with the mouse. By default, MIDI channel 1, 2, & 3 are used for the
upper and lower manuals and the pedals. Even has the reversed color lowest
octave that is used to select patches. Tabs that look like those on a B3 for
vibrato/chorus, Leslie on/off (a half-moon switch for speed, which is
actuated on the keyboard by the mod wheel), a Distortion switch to squash
the sound, Percussion can be turned on/off and adjusted. Another software
view gets into a lot of controls for the emulated Leslie (speeds, how quick
it winds up and down, mic position relative to the woofer and horn, etc.)
NI now sells version 2 of this software, which also allows using different
sets of tonewheels, ranging from factory new, to an instrument that has been
used and abused on the road for years, even a Farfisa imitation. NI also
sells a MIDI controller that simulates a set of drawbars (I don't have
this). My eMu 49 key MIDI controller can be programmed so that the knobs on
it adjust a considerable number of the drawbars, the mod wheel works OK for
Leslie speed, and I can switch MIDI channels to give me three "presets"
quickly while playing (Upper manual setting, lower manual, and pedal
setting).

Pros and cons: Pros: The simulation is very good (if you want to spend the
money for a 25-key MIDI bass pedal set and you have two MIDI controller
keyboards, you can even play it like you would a real B3. Weight and size -
no 410 pound console nor 120 pound Leslie cabinet to move around. IF you
already have the computer equipment for other uses (like Sonar or Cubase for
sequencing) the added expense is minimal.
Cons: Notebook computers are much more fragile than typical pro keyboards.
Adjusting things - I have the notebook in a docking station on my left side.
This is not an ideal spot for making adjustments, and a mouse is not the
best tool for working in a live music situation. I usually only use the
mouse to turn on and off the percussion on the upper manual. Occasionally,
the software protection demands the original CD (but it gives me up to 3
days to produce it before it refuses to open).

Comparison: I leave one basic setup at the church, including a Trace bass
amp, 2x15 Fender cabinet, HF tweeter array, docking station, keyboard stand,
small audio mixer, Kurzweil K2000VP. All I carry back and forth is the
notebook, which I use for other purposes during the week. My other basic
setup in my shop is carried to any other venues. It includes a K2661
Kurzweil and PC2 Kurzweil, another small mixer, Trace amp, 2x10 and 1x15
Trace cabinets. Frankly, the KB-3 modules in the Kurzweils make some
dynamite Hammond B3 sounds, and are much easier to work with in live
performance. I like playing on two manuals instead of splitting a single
manual (always want a couple of notes that are on the wrong side of the
split). However, when I got the Native Instruments B4 software, I did not
have the newer Kurzweils. I really love the flexibility of the two newer
Kurzweils, but they are not quite as easy to move around. I wouldn't want to
leave them at the site (then I don't have anything to practice on except the
SP88X stage piano in the living room).

I've been using the B4 software now since last September, it has always been
dependable. I bought it used from EBay vendor, the person also sent me a
burned CD with the later version software (it still wants nothing but the
original CD to verify legal copy). The keyboard stand that I leave at church
is one of the older type stands, and only the bottom keyboard can be 61, 76,
or more keys, the upper area is not wide enough for a 61 (this is going to
be cured by replacement soon).

I'd better get moving, I've got to be somewhere else in a few min.

Jim

ptooner

05-12-2007, 06:07 PM

Great info, thanks Jim.

gerry
"Ballroom Dancer" <abc@def.ghi> wrote in message
news:LFo1i.108126$oJ1.63839@newsfe18.lga...
>
> "ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
> news:s%k1i.742$nh.644@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
>> Well, thanks a bunch. ;-) Did you listen to these?:
>> http://www.gerrygeddings.com/nonamekeymusic.htm They are my daughter's
>> vocals.
>>
>
>>> Most of my playing out now is with the church band, Kurzweil K2000VP and
>>> eMu keyboard into a notebook computer running Native Instruments B4
>>> software (Hammond B3 sound).
>>
>> I've heard good things bout the NI B4 and I confess I haven't found
>> anything that suits me to replace a real B3. I am a little hesitant
>> about depending on soft synths live, though. How long have you been
>> doing it and what is your experience with it? I'm using a Roland JV1010
>> module for my organs at the moment but am not really happy with it.
>>
>>>
>>> From your website, it sounds like your family is right where it needs to
>>> be - close relationship. You are probably as glad to no longer be living
>>> near D.C. as I am to no longer be living near Norfolk - Virginia Beach.
>>> I've stepped back from full-time work to partial retirement - I don't
>>> want to fully retire, but it is amazing how much time during the week
>>> can be taken up doing things that are enjoyable.
>>
>> All very true. I'm fully retired except for music and that takes up a
>> bunch of my time. I just finished the newest cd for the band this
>> Wednesday and am hard at work on a gospel-only one. Today I'm headed
>> over to GC to pick up my new bass.
>>
>> Gerry
>
> I haven't yet listened, but I will later today. I've got to go out for
> several hours in about 1/2 hr. The Native Instruments B4 that I have is
> the first version, and it does a very good job of simulating, if put with
> the proper computer equipment. I use a 1Ghz Pentium III notebook with
> 576mb of RAM. More important, a good ASIO audio system is needed to reduce
> latency to a usable amount - I'm using an eMu 1616M, which plugs into the
> PCMCIA slot in the notebook. The software on screen looks like looking
> down at a B3 console. The drawbars can be set to any of a couple of
> hundred presets, or moved with the mouse. By default, MIDI channel 1, 2, &
> 3 are used for the upper and lower manuals and the pedals. Even has the
> reversed color lowest octave that is used to select patches. Tabs that
> look like those on a B3 for vibrato/chorus, Leslie on/off (a half-moon
> switch for speed, which is actuated on the keyboard by the mod wheel), a
> Distortion switch to squash the sound, Percussion can be turned on/off and
> adjusted. Another software view gets into a lot of controls for the
> emulated Leslie (speeds, how quick it winds up and down, mic position
> relative to the woofer and horn, etc.) NI now sells version 2 of this
> software, which also allows using different sets of tonewheels, ranging
> from factory new, to an instrument that has been used and abused on the
> road for years, even a Farfisa imitation. NI also sells a MIDI controller
> that simulates a set of drawbars (I don't have this). My eMu 49 key MIDI
> controller can be programmed so that the knobs on it adjust a considerable
> number of the drawbars, the mod wheel works OK for Leslie speed, and I can
> switch MIDI channels to give me three "presets" quickly while playing
> (Upper manual setting, lower manual, and pedal setting).
>
> Pros and cons: Pros: The simulation is very good (if you want to spend the
> money for a 25-key MIDI bass pedal set and you have two MIDI controller
> keyboards, you can even play it like you would a real B3. Weight and
> size - no 410 pound console nor 120 pound Leslie cabinet to move around.
> IF you already have the computer equipment for other uses (like Sonar or
> Cubase for sequencing) the added expense is minimal.
> Cons: Notebook computers are much more fragile than typical pro keyboards.
> Adjusting things - I have the notebook in a docking station on my left
> side. This is not an ideal spot for making adjustments, and a mouse is not
> the best tool for working in a live music situation. I usually only use
> the mouse to turn on and off the percussion on the upper manual.
> Occasionally, the software protection demands the original CD (but it
> gives me up to 3 days to produce it before it refuses to open).
>
> Comparison: I leave one basic setup at the church, including a Trace bass
> amp, 2x15 Fender cabinet, HF tweeter array, docking station, keyboard
> stand, small audio mixer, Kurzweil K2000VP. All I carry back and forth is
> the notebook, which I use for other purposes during the week. My other
> basic setup in my shop is carried to any other venues. It includes a K2661
> Kurzweil and PC2 Kurzweil, another small mixer, Trace amp, 2x10 and 1x15
> Trace cabinets. Frankly, the KB-3 modules in the Kurzweils make some
> dynamite Hammond B3 sounds, and are much easier to work with in live
> performance. I like playing on two manuals instead of splitting a single
> manual (always want a couple of notes that are on the wrong side of the
> split). However, when I got the Native Instruments B4 software, I did not
> have the newer Kurzweils. I really love the flexibility of the two newer
> Kurzweils, but they are not quite as easy to move around. I wouldn't want
> to leave them at the site (then I don't have anything to practice on
> except the SP88X stage piano in the living room).
>
> I've been using the B4 software now since last September, it has always
> been dependable. I bought it used from EBay vendor, the person also sent
> me a burned CD with the later version software (it still wants nothing but
> the original CD to verify legal copy). The keyboard stand that I leave at
> church is one of the older type stands, and only the bottom keyboard can
> be 61, 76, or more keys, the upper area is not wide enough for a 61 (this
> is going to be cured by replacement soon).
>
> I'd better get moving, I've got to be somewhere else in a few min.
>
> Jim
>
>

Ballroom Dancer

05-12-2007, 11:06 PM

"ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
news:R%p1i.793$O9.597@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> Great info, thanks Jim.
>
> gerry
I got back and listened to your music with your daughter - wow - she sounds
like she really enjoys singing. "Something to talk about" - I can see why
you are not estatic about the Roland organ sounds. The Kurzweil KB-3 is
found in the K2500 series, K2600 series, and PC2 (and soon PC3) instruments.
You would be well pleased with the Hammond organ sound from either KB-3 or
the Native Instruments B4 II. All of the other instrumentation on the web
site sounds good.

BTW - the KB3 eats up most of the polyphony on the Kurzweil (only a problem
if you are sequencing multiple parts with only one Kurzweil) - even if notes
are not being played, the electronics that simulates the tone wheels runs
all the time.

Noted in another thread that you did buy the Fender bass - I expect you will
enjoy it.

I have a new ThinkPad R52 notebook with 1.5G RAM - that one runs the
software synths really well. Also have eMu Emulator X for sampling (I don't
like any of the eMu piano sounds nearly as well as the Triple Strike Piano
on the later Kurzweils). This particular notebook is transition - it has one
PCMCIA slot and one of the new type slots.

Hope things don't get too smoky in the Jax area from the fires in Ga-FL.

Jim

ptooner

05-13-2007, 11:29 AM

"Ballroom Dancer" <abc@def.ghi> wrote in message
news:2pu1i.55066$OT4.6407@newsfe19.lga...
>
> "ptooner" <someguy@onthe.net> wrote in message
> news:R%p1i.793$O9.597@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> Great info, thanks Jim.
>>
>> gerry
> I got back and listened to your music with your daughter - wow - she
> sounds like she really enjoys singing. "Something to talk about" - I can
> see why you are not estatic about the Roland organ sounds. The Kurzweil
> KB-3 is found in the K2500 series, K2600 series, and PC2 (and soon PC3)
> instruments. You would be well pleased with the Hammond organ sound from
> either KB-3 or the Native Instruments B4 II. All of the other
> instrumentation on the web site sounds good.
>
> BTW - the KB3 eats up most of the polyphony on the Kurzweil (only a
> problem if you are sequencing multiple parts with only one Kurzweil) -
> even if notes are not being played, the electronics that simulates the
> tone wheels runs all the time.
>
> Noted in another thread that you did buy the Fender bass - I expect you
> will enjoy it.
>
> I have a new ThinkPad R52 notebook with 1.5G RAM - that one runs the
> software synths really well. Also have eMu Emulator X for sampling (I
> don't like any of the eMu piano sounds nearly as well as the Triple Strike
> Piano on the later Kurzweils). This particular notebook is transition - it
> has one PCMCIA slot and one of the new type slots.
>
> Hope things don't get too smoky in the Jax area from the fires in Ga-FL.
>
> Jim
>

I think the organ you're referring to was a Yamaha SO3 I got rid of. I just
listened to the track again and I find I really like the electric guitar and
percussion from the JV1010. My problem with Kurzweil and Korg for that
matter is neither of them have a believable piano to my ear. Since I'm a
primary piano player that is very important. The real long term solution
will undoubtedly be in soft synths. I run a ThinkPad T41 1gig for sequences
using usually Cakewalk Pro 9 for sequences.

Yes, we have had a good deal of problem with smoke lately. It got a little
tough on the throat doing our outdoor thing Thursday. It seems to be better
this morning.

Thanks again for all the info.

Gerry
>