Hey Allan (and other eBassist computer folks)

[Thunderbroom]

My son wants a computer to access the internet and my home office PC could stand to be replaced. I'm thinking about giving him mine and then just buying a new desktop.

I just got an email from the bookstore at the college where I work stating that we can get the following titles for $35.95 each:

Windows Vista Business 32bit
Office 2007 Standard
Office Pro 2007
Office Enterprise 2007
Office Groove 2007
Office SharePoint Designer 2007
Publisher 2007
OneNote 2007
Visio Pro 2007
Project Pro 2007

I was thinking of just ordering a Gateway or Dell but know that they come with the OS installed plus a bunch of other crap. I have built a computer in the past and would consider it again. I'm just so out of the loop nowadays though and wouldn't really know where to start. It just seems that since I can get the OS and Office for so cheap, that building it may be a smart move.

Anybody care to spec me out a current system?


I'd need the following:
Case
Motherboard
RAM
Video Card
Audio Card

I've got two 19" Flat CRT's that I'd continue to use with the new machine, so I don't really need a monitor. I've got hard drives that I could use but am guessing that technology has changed. I believe my current ones are IDE (?). I've ordered from Newegg in the past and was satisfied with the experience. Also, I've got software on my current desktop that I'd like to transfer to the new machine but don't have the original disks anymore (yes, I do own them legally). Is there a way to move just those titles to a new computer?

I posted this at HCBF but remembered that AG rarely goes over there.

[oldivor]

Every thing I've heard about Vista has been horrible.

[Thunderbroom]

Every thing I've heard about Vista has been horrible.


What's the scoop with DRM in Vista?

[oldivor]

What's the scoop with DRM in Vista?

http://polishlinux.org/gnu/drm-vista-and-your-rights/

I thought it was good.

[HackedByChinese!]

What's the scoop with DRM in Vista?

DRM is really the least of the problems with it-it's driver and hardware issues that are the real pain in the rear right now.

[basslord1124]

I don't have a lot of time at the moment to dig through newegg to spec out a system BUT I can give ya a few suggestions:

-If you're trying to save some money go with an AMD setup vs Intel. I would think a dual core 64 bit capable AMD setup would be nice.
-With Vista I'd recommend the more RAM the better....go with a minimum of 1GB....preferably going for 2GB.
-Video card...same deal basically. Get something beefy with 256MB of video RAM or more. PCI-Xpress too....AGP is fizzling out.
-Hard drives....go with SATA. ATA/IDE drives still exist of course, but SATA is nicer b/c it transfers data quicker and the cables aren't as bulky as regular IDE cables so it offers better airflow. Also, there isn't any Master/Slave configurations with SATA.

Do you still wanna use your old CD/DVD drives? I was gonna say you can get dual layer DVD burners for pretty cheap nowadays. If I got time later, I'll come back and help ya some more...or I am sure the other geeks here will chime in too.

[niomosy]

What's the scoop with DRM in Vista?

This has been a more informative scoop, at least that I've seen, on their DRM. It's a long read.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

[niomosy]

DRM is really the least of the problems with it-it's driver and hardware issues that are the real pain in the rear right now.

The article I linked to is suggesting that DRM will become a bigger issue. Vista disables any non-secure interface from playing HD content. Once we move to more HD content, the problem will become greater, where users can't play HD audio on SPDIF outputs since Vista considers them insecure.

[MrJoshua]

You won't save much money going with an AMD setup these days. Maybe twenty bucks on the processor, but all the other system components are about the same. If I was building a new system, I'd go with an Intel Core 2 Duo. The cheapest one is just barely over $100, and it's a good processor. Quick at stock speeds, and very easy to overclock if you want to go that route.

Here's what I posted on the other forum:

For a case, I like Antec cases. They're solidly built and usually come with Antec power supplies, which are very decent. You can get one at www.newegg.com for under $100 no problem, and that's for a nice case with a good power supply.

For CPU, there's really no reason not to build a dual-core Intel Core 2 Duo system anymore. Prices are very low, and the performance speaks for itself. Even if you just use the computer for normal office work and such, you'd save what, twenty bucks by going with a single-core processor? With a multi-core, multitasking is so much more enjoyable. Now, which model should you get? It depends. It sounds like you just want a decent, solid office machine, so I'd just go with the Core 2 Duo E4300 ( $116 at Newegg ). This is a solid processor with decent performance, and if it's too slow for you, it's VERY easy to overclock. My gaming computer has one of these running at 2.7GHz with stock air cooling. It's a solid chip.

Motherboards. I'm a fan of Asus boards, but there are lots of good, solid manufacturers these days. I'd consider the Asus P5B-E ( $146.99 at Newegg ). It isn't cheap, but it includes the so-called "HD" Audio, which sounds as good as most outboard cards (I'm talking consumer-level stuff, not audiophile quality, of course). But I've had good luck with boards from Asus, DFI, ASRock, and other manufacturers in the past, so by all means, shop around.

RAM depends on if you're building an XP or Vista system. Vista is more responsive, but it requires more RAM to feel that way (it keeps more things in RAM than XP does, making them faster to access but requiring more memory). It also depends on if you go with the E4300 or a faster processor with a higher front-side bus speed. With Vista, I'd recommend 2GB of RAM; with XP, you can cut that in half to 1GB. With the E4300, I'd recommend DDR2-533 ( Newegg has Corsair Value RAM for $84.99 for 2GB from a good manufacturer), since it has a lower front-side bus speed and won't really take advantage of faster memory. If you go with one of the 6000-series Core 2 Duo chips, I'd recommend bumping the memory speed up to DDR2-667 to take advantage of the faster front-side bus. If you're interested in overclocking or building a system with an AMD processor, go with DDR2-800 memory.

Now the video card. Two 19" CRT monitors can be run off of just about any modern video card. The question is, what will you be doing on the computer? If it's just basic office stuff, etc., you don't need to spend much money on a video card. An nVidia GeForce 7300 or an ATi Radeon X1300 would probably be plenty of card. Either is perfectly capable of running two monitors at reasonable resolutions. Now, if you want to play some games, I'd bump up the budget for the video card a bit, but that's up to you. The motherboard I recommended and most other boards these days (read as: almost all) support PCIe videocards; AGP is being phased out rapidly.

For hard drives, you can get a LOT of hard drive for little cash these days. Check out the Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 series. I'd invest in a new drive if I was building a new system. The serial-ATA connection (SATA) is faster (although not in such a way that makes much of a noticeable impact on your system performance), and drives these days are huge. A 320GB drive is less than $100. The cables are smaller and easier to run for SATA drives, also. Mainly, I'd look at this option because motherboards are starting to contain only one normal ATA connector - enough to hook up two drives total. If you have two optical drives, you're out of luck when looking to add a hard drive, unless you buy an IDE controller to go in a PCI card slot.

Hope that helps.

[bassment zombie]

The article I linked to is suggesting that DRM will become a bigger issue. Vista disables any non-secure interface from playing HD content. Once we move to more HD content, the problem will become greater, where users can't play HD audio on SPDIF outputs since Vista considers them insecure.
I'm certainly no techie, but that sounds like a major compatibility issue, to say the least! :eek: Do you think MS/Vista will remove or change this feature where non-secure interfaces are prohibited from playing HD content, or...? Sounds like a major problem that can and will only get worse.

[niomosy]

I'm certainly no techie, but that sounds like a major compatibility issue, to say the least! :eek: Do you think MS/Vista will remove or change this feature where non-secure interfaces are prohibited from playing HD content, or...? Sounds like a major problem that can and will only get worse.

The techie community has long been at work creating work-arounds for at least some of this stuff (the article did mention HD-DVD now being playable, I believe at 1080p). Not sure on what is and what is not do-able on Vista right now with.. err... enhancements ;)

[Thunderbroom]

Here's what I posted on the other forum:

Thanks so much for this post. It's what I was hoping for.
:)

[MrJoshua]

Thanks so much for this post. It's what I was hoping for.
:)

No problem. I built a new system just a few months ago and have been thinking about upgrading another, so I've been looking at prices and stuff anyway. :) I notice you have MS Office 2007 on your list for cheap. Have you used the 2007 version yet? I think they really hit a home run with the new user interface. The more I get used to it, the more I like it.

[Thunderbroom]

No problem. I built a new system just a few months ago and have been thinking about upgrading another, so I've been looking at prices and stuff anyway. :) I notice you have MS Office 2007 on your list for cheap. Have you used the 2007 version yet? I think they really hit a home run with the new user interface. The more I get used to it, the more I like it.

We're still using Office 2003.

I was able to read this thread and the one at HCBF finally. There seems to be a lot of hate towards Vista. I just want to be able to continue doing what I've always been doing with my computer: MS Office stuff, working with audio using Cool Edit Pro, and burning stuff with Nero. I am thinking that I would like to get a recording interface on my computer again, but I'd make sure it was Vista compatible when I did.

[MrJoshua]

We're still using Office 2003.

I was able to read this thread and the one at HCBF finally. There seems to be a lot of hate towards Vista. I just want to be able to continue doing what I've always been doing with my computer: MS Office stuff, working with audio using Cool Edit Pro, and burning stuff with Nero. I am thinking that I would like to get a recording interface on my computer again, but I'd make sure it was Vista compatible when I did.

If you're thinking of getting another recording interface, you might want to go with XP. While Vista works well for gaming and such, who knows how long it will be until recording software is compatible? I know ProTools has been talking about coming out with a Vista-compatible version for months now. They've recently changed it from "coming soon" to "coming this summer," so maybe it will only be a few more months, but who knows?

I'm not sure about Cool Edit Pro. I'd check with them and see if it's compatible. I know Nero was having problems for a while.

I guess the big difference between me and most people is, I don't see this as being Microsoft's fault. I blame the people who make these programs and haven't bothered making sure their applications will work on the new OS, even though they've had several beta versions and years to work on it. But either way, my basic rule of thumb is, decide what you want to do, what you need to run in order to do it, and what OS and hardware you need in order to run it properly. In that order. :)

[Thunderbroom]

I can wait on the recording stuff as I have a laptop. By the time I'm ready, stuff will be available.

[MrJoshua]

I can wait on the recording stuff as I have a laptop. By the time I'm ready, stuff will be available.

Fair enough. :) And for $35, if you decide you don't like Vista, you can probably sell it and go back to XP, lol.

[basslord1124]

Not sure if you noticed, but Cool Edit Pro has joined up with Adobe basically and is now called Adobe Audition.

[niomosy]

If you're thinking of getting another recording interface, you might want to go with XP. While Vista works well for gaming and such, who knows how long it will be until recording software is compatible? I know ProTools has been talking about coming out with a Vista-compatible version for months now. They've recently changed it from "coming soon" to "coming this summer," so maybe it will only be a few more months, but who knows?

I'm not sure about Cool Edit Pro. I'd check with them and see if it's compatible. I know Nero was having problems for a while.

I guess the big difference between me and most people is, I don't see this as being Microsoft's fault. I blame the people who make these programs and haven't bothered making sure their applications will work on the new OS, even though they've had several beta versions and years to work on it. But either way, my basic rule of thumb is, decide what you want to do, what you need to run in order to do it, and what OS and hardware you need in order to run it properly. In that order. :)

From the link I original posted....

Anyone confirm this?

In order to appropriately protect content, Vista will probably have to disable any special device features that it can't directly control. For example many sound cards built on C-Media chipsets (which in practice is the vast majority of them) support Steinberg's ASIO (Audio Stream I/O), a digital audio interface that completely bypasses the Windows audio mixer and other audio-related driver software to provide more flexibility and much lower latency than the Windows ones. ASIO support is standard for newer C-Media hardware like the CMI 8788. Since ASIO bypasses Windows' audio handling, it would probably have to be disabled, which is problematic because audiophiles and professional musicians require ASIO support specifically because of its much higher quality than the standard Windows channels. You can get more information on Vista's audio architecture and the changes from XP in this post from Creative Labs, and a discussion of the problems that the DRM-reengineered Vista audio system causes for sound card vendors in this article on the future of Vista audio.

[allan]

You can't build a computer as inexpensively as you can buy one - haven't been able to for years :(

[HackedByChinese!]

You can't build a computer as inexpensively as you can buy one - haven't been able to for years :(

Doesn't this run true on the low end, but not nearly so much on the high end? I know you can build a top-of-the line machine yourself for a significantly lower cost than a boutique builder like Alienware.

[allan]

Doesn't this run true on the low end, but not nearly so much on the high end? I know you can build a top-of-the line machine yourself for a significantly lower cost than a boutique builder like Alienware.

IME it holds true on both ends of the spectrum. Alienware (now Dell) can buy high-end parts a lot cheaper than a consumer can ;)

edit: Well, damn. I stand corrected.

I picked an Alienware MJ-12® 8550i at random. Price is $2529.00

Now - same components from newegg -

$245.00 - Intel Xeon 5110 Woodcrest 1.6GHz Socket 771 Active or 1U Processor Model BX805565110A - Retail

$199.99 - Microsoft Windows XP Professional Upgrade with SP2 - Retail

$46.99 - Kingston ValueRAM 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 400 (PC2 3200) Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model KVR400D2N3K2/1G - Retail

$179.99 - PNY VCQFX350-PCIE-PB Quadro FX350 GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

$67.99 - Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250820AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

$32.99 - SAMSUNG 18X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe and Software Black IDE Model SH-S182M/BEBM - OEM

$74.99 - Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail

$399.99 - ASUS DSBF-DE Dual Socket 771 Intel 5000P MCH SSI EEB 3.61 Server Motherboard - Retail

$69.99 - COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power RP-550-PCAR ATX from factor 12V V2.01 550W Power Supply - Retail

and let's say $100 for a decent case, floppy drive, and drive data cables.

Price for the homebuilt system is $1417.92 plus shipping.