Passive bass question

[JoeSpareBedroom]

The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most passive
circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be appreciated. This
9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).

[Yannick P.]

JoeSpareBedroom wrote in message <XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny>:

> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).

Without a battery you can only remove some of the signal, not boost.

[Larry Shaw]

The tone control just bleeds off some of the signal through a capacitor to
earth.
You can't add anything to the signal before it leaves a passive Bass.
(well, you can add taxi and police radio signals, hum from flourescent
lights - all sort of other junk signals if your screening is not up to the
job).

www.union-revival.com



("JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>

[Brian Running]

> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most passive
> circuitry?

Up. No, wait -- yes.

[Clive - Selectron]

Why is the battery a problem?
I can only speak from a personal
perspective (ignoring the fact that I distribute
EMG in the UK) in that you'll get around 3000 hrs
life from the battery powering f'rinstance a Jazz set
which is around 750 4 hr gigs....assuming you pull
the cable out when not in use.
Some early actives were juicy...I had an Aria SB-1000
that needed an 18v supply and ate batteries but modern
actives are very low consumption.
I change battery every year to be on the safe side
and it always has plenty left...never a problem.
Passive tone circuits will only cut treble and you lose
even more in the cable with Hi-z passive p/ups.
Nothing at all wrong with 'em...you pays yer money etc
but I don't see why changing the battery every 12 or even
24 months is a problem.

--
Clive P Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
Musical Equipment Distribution.
www.skullstrings.com
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
www.espshop.co.uk

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>

[Todd H.]

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> writes:

> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most passive
> circuitry?

Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
element, so boosting anything isn't an option.

--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband

[JoeSpareBedroom]

This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting 40-50
hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to make
sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out. The bass will
play with batteries down to around 6.8 volts, although it begins to sound a
bit dead. Shortly thereafter, it just dies. My main issue with the batteries
is that the process of checking them involves (obviously) flexing wires each
time. Peavey used really lousy battery clips in this bass, so both ground
wires recently detached themselves. I'm about to install better clips, but
even so, I wonder how long they'll last.

What I'd really like is a way of determining voltage without having to pop
out the batteries. Perhaps I'll start a trend: Old fashioned needle-style
meters on the front of the instrument, and a test button. :-)


"Clive - Selectron" <clive@selectron-uk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4638a831$0$5854$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshostin g.com...
> Why is the battery a problem?
> I can only speak from a personal
> perspective (ignoring the fact that I distribute
> EMG in the UK) in that you'll get around 3000 hrs
> life from the battery powering f'rinstance a Jazz set
> which is around 750 4 hr gigs....assuming you pull
> the cable out when not in use.
> Some early actives were juicy...I had an Aria SB-1000
> that needed an 18v supply and ate batteries but modern
> actives are very low consumption.
> I change battery every year to be on the safe side
> and it always has plenty left...never a problem.
> Passive tone circuits will only cut treble and you lose
> even more in the cable with Hi-z passive p/ups.
> Nothing at all wrong with 'em...you pays yer money etc
> but I don't see why changing the battery every 12 or even
> 24 months is a problem.
>
> --
> Clive P Norris
> Managing Director
> Selectron (UK) Ltd
> Musical Equipment Distribution.
> www.skullstrings.com
> www.espguitars.co.uk
> www.emgpickups.co.uk
> www.tube-shop.com
> www.coreoneproduct.com
> www.whirlwindusa.com
> www.espshop.co.uk
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
>> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>> jam session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control
>> is nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
>> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>>
>
>

[JoeSpareBedroom]

The controls are nice & quiet. Haven't had it checked for a DC leak.
Unfortunately (or fortunately), I've been to busy playing to leave the thing
at my favorite repair shop for any length of time.


"Clive - Selectron" <clive@selectron-uk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4638b0d3$0$26305$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosti ng.com...
>I see your problem.
> That sort of battery life is really not acceptable.
> Are you sure you don't have a DC leak to earth
> somewhere?
> Any crackle on the pots is always a good clue.
> Fitting a set of EMGs will solve the problem!!
>
> --
> Clive P Norris
> Managing Director
> Selectron (UK) Ltd
> Musical Equipment Distribution.
> www.skullstrings.com
> www.espguitars.co.uk
> www.emgpickups.co.uk
> www.tube-shop.com
> www.coreoneproduct.com
> www.whirlwindusa.com
> www.espshop.co.uk
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:YT1_h.7821$ya1.5473@news02.roc.ny...
>> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting
>> 40-50 hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to
>> make sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out. The bass
>> will play with batteries down to around 6.8 volts, although it begins to
>> sound a bit dead. Shortly thereafter, it just dies. My main issue with
>> the batteries is that the process of checking them involves (obviously)
>> flexing wires each time. Peavey used really lousy battery clips in this
>> bass, so both ground wires recently detached themselves. I'm about to
>> install better clips, but even so, I wonder how long they'll last.
>>
>> What I'd really like is a way of determining voltage without having to
>> pop out the batteries. Perhaps I'll start a trend: Old fashioned
>> needle-style meters on the front of the instrument, and a test button.
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> "Clive - Selectron" <clive@selectron-uk.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:4638a831$0$5854$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshostin g.com...
>>> Why is the battery a problem?
>>> I can only speak from a personal
>>> perspective (ignoring the fact that I distribute
>>> EMG in the UK) in that you'll get around 3000 hrs
>>> life from the battery powering f'rinstance a Jazz set
>>> which is around 750 4 hr gigs....assuming you pull
>>> the cable out when not in use.
>>> Some early actives were juicy...I had an Aria SB-1000
>>> that needed an 18v supply and ate batteries but modern
>>> actives are very low consumption.
>>> I change battery every year to be on the safe side
>>> and it always has plenty left...never a problem.
>>> Passive tone circuits will only cut treble and you lose
>>> even more in the cable with Hi-z passive p/ups.
>>> Nothing at all wrong with 'em...you pays yer money etc
>>> but I don't see why changing the battery every 12 or even
>>> 24 months is a problem.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Clive P Norris
>>> Managing Director
>>> Selectron (UK) Ltd
>>> Musical Equipment Distribution.
>>> www.skullstrings.com
>>> www.espguitars.co.uk
>>> www.emgpickups.co.uk
>>> www.tube-shop.com
>>> www.coreoneproduct.com
>>> www.whirlwindusa.com
>>> www.espshop.co.uk
>>>
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
>>>> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>>>> jam session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control
>>>> is nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>>>> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
>>>> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Clive - Selectron]

I see your problem.
That sort of battery life is really not acceptable.
Are you sure you don't have a DC leak to earth
somewhere?
Any crackle on the pots is always a good clue.
Fitting a set of EMGs will solve the problem!!

--
Clive P Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
Musical Equipment Distribution.
www.skullstrings.com
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
www.espshop.co.uk

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:YT1_h.7821$ya1.5473@news02.roc.ny...
> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting
> 40-50 hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to
> make sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out. The bass
> will play with batteries down to around 6.8 volts, although it begins to
> sound a bit dead. Shortly thereafter, it just dies. My main issue with the
> batteries is that the process of checking them involves (obviously)
> flexing wires each time. Peavey used really lousy battery clips in this
> bass, so both ground wires recently detached themselves. I'm about to
> install better clips, but even so, I wonder how long they'll last.
>
> What I'd really like is a way of determining voltage without having to pop
> out the batteries. Perhaps I'll start a trend: Old fashioned needle-style
> meters on the front of the instrument, and a test button. :-)
>
>
> "Clive - Selectron" <clive@selectron-uk.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4638a831$0$5854$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshostin g.com...
>> Why is the battery a problem?
>> I can only speak from a personal
>> perspective (ignoring the fact that I distribute
>> EMG in the UK) in that you'll get around 3000 hrs
>> life from the battery powering f'rinstance a Jazz set
>> which is around 750 4 hr gigs....assuming you pull
>> the cable out when not in use.
>> Some early actives were juicy...I had an Aria SB-1000
>> that needed an 18v supply and ate batteries but modern
>> actives are very low consumption.
>> I change battery every year to be on the safe side
>> and it always has plenty left...never a problem.
>> Passive tone circuits will only cut treble and you lose
>> even more in the cable with Hi-z passive p/ups.
>> Nothing at all wrong with 'em...you pays yer money etc
>> but I don't see why changing the battery every 12 or even
>> 24 months is a problem.
>>
>> --
>> Clive P Norris
>> Managing Director
>> Selectron (UK) Ltd
>> Musical Equipment Distribution.
>> www.skullstrings.com
>> www.espguitars.co.uk
>> www.emgpickups.co.uk
>> www.tube-shop.com
>> www.coreoneproduct.com
>> www.whirlwindusa.com
>> www.espshop.co.uk
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
>>> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>>> jam session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control
>>> is nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>>> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
>>> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[BW]

On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most passive
> > circuitry?
>
> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>
> --
> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
> / \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband

If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"BW" <barrybassist@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>> > jam
>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>> > passive
>> > circuitry?
>>
>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>>
>> --
>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
>> / \
>> http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>
> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>


I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?

[Brian Running]

> I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
> into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
> wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?

I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass
player, what do I know?

[Clive - Selectron]

You can also change the jack socket for
an XLR and wire-in a 9v battery eliminator
(wallwart) at the amp end using 3 conductor cable.
It has been done by at least one manufacturer...who
escapes me...but it's an option I wouldn't bother with
if a home project!!

--
Clive P Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
Musical Equipment Distribution.
www.skullstrings.com
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.coreoneproduct.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
www.espshop.co.uk

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kF2_h.7685$B25.3153@news01.roc.ny...
> "BW" <barrybassist@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
>> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>>> > jam
>>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
>>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>>> > passive
>>> > circuitry?
>>>
>>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
>>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>>>
>>> --
>>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
>>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
>>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
>>> / \
>>> http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>>
>> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
>> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
>> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
>> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
>> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>>
>
>
> I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
> into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
> wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:RT2_h.19898$JZ3.5194@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
>> I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could
>> plug into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to
>> the wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
> the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
> phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
> output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass player,
> what do I know?


That's what my Alembic had, sorta kinda. But, I don't want wires underfoot.
They get in the way when I'm ready to bust a move, which is always. :-)

[BW]

On May 2, 12:27 pm, "Clive - Selectron" <c...@selectron-uk.co.uk>
wrote:
> You can also change the jack socket for
> an XLR and wire-in a 9v battery eliminator
> (wallwart) at the amp end using 3 conductor cable.
> It has been done by at least one manufacturer...who
> escapes me...but it's an option I wouldn't bother with
> if a home project!!
>
> --
> Clive P Norris
> Managing Director
> Selectron (UK) Ltd
> Musical Equipment Distribution.www.skullstrings.comwww.espguitars.co .ukwww.emgpickups.co.ukwww.tube-shop.comwww.coreoneproduct.comwww.whirlwindusa.com www.espshop.co.uk
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:kF2_h.7685$B25.3153@news01.roc.ny...
>
> > "BW" <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
> >> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
> >>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
> >>> > jam
> >>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> >>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> >>> > passive
> >>> > circuitry?
>
> >>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
> >>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>
> >>> --
> >>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
> >>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
> >>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
> >>> / \
> >>>http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>
> >> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
> >> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
> >> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
> >> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
> >> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>
> > I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
> > into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
> > wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?

I seem to recall that Jimmy Johnson (James Taylor's bassist - damn, I
want that gig!), who makes a lot of his own electronics, plays an
Alembic, has a very thick wire coming from his bass - much fatter than
any regular jack. (crude punchline would go here, but why bother?).

I'm sure he plays active, and wonder if he's got some sort of battery-
eliminating set up. Anybody have any ideas?

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"BW" <barrybassist@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1178125092.891428.17390@o5g2000hsb.googlegrou ps.com...
> On May 2, 12:27 pm, "Clive - Selectron" <c...@selectron-uk.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> You can also change the jack socket for
>> an XLR and wire-in a 9v battery eliminator
>> (wallwart) at the amp end using 3 conductor cable.
>> It has been done by at least one manufacturer...who
>> escapes me...but it's an option I wouldn't bother with
>> if a home project!!
>>
>> --
>> Clive P Norris
>> Managing Director
>> Selectron (UK) Ltd
>> Musical Equipment
>> Distribution.www.skullstrings.comwww.espguitars.co .ukwww.emgpickups.co.ukwww.tube-shop.comwww.coreoneproduct.comwww.whirlwindusa.com www.espshop.co.uk
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:kF2_h.7685$B25.3153@news01.roc.ny...
>>
>> > "BW" <barrybass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
>> >> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>> >>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> >>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender
>> >>> > at a
>> >>> > jam
>> >>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control
>> >>> > is
>> >>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with
>> >>> > most
>> >>> > passive
>> >>> > circuitry?
>>
>> >>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
>> >>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
>> >>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
>> >>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
>> >>> / \
>> >>>http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>>
>> >> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
>> >> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
>> >> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
>> >> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
>> >> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>>
>> > I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could
>> > plug
>> > into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
>> > wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I seem to recall that Jimmy Johnson (James Taylor's bassist - damn, I
> want that gig!), who makes a lot of his own electronics, plays an
> Alembic, has a very thick wire coming from his bass - much fatter than
> any regular jack. (crude punchline would go here, but why bother?).
>
> I'm sure he plays active, and wonder if he's got some sort of battery-
> eliminating set up. Anybody have any ideas?
>

My old Alembic had a blue box with an AC cord. The box plugged into the amp,
and the bass plugged into the box. The box provided power to the bass, and
passed signal to the amp. The bass also had a 9v battery, in case I wanted
to use the phone plug, and I don't recall how operation was different that
way, but it was.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

.....and, I realize I didn't finish. The cord from the bass to the blue box
was a fat one with XLR plugs on both ends.

[Clive]

A Dutch amp company...Novanex...came
up with the idea of powering effects pedals
using phantom power from the amp in the early 70s.
The problem was that you had to use their pedals.
Never caught on.

--
Clive Norris
Managing Director
Selectron (UK) Ltd
www.espguitars.co.uk
www.espshop.co.uk
www.mightymite.com
www.emgpickups.co.uk
www.tube-shop.com
www.whirlwindusa.com
www.deanmarkley.com
"Those who can make you
believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire

"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:RT2_h.19898$JZ3.5194@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
>> I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could
>> plug into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to
>> the wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
> the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
> phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
> output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass player,
> what do I know?

[Todd H.]

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> writes:

> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting 40-50
> hours out of a set of batteries,


That's a lot shorter than my experience with the same bass. I wonder
if you have a power supply decoupling capacitor that has gone leaky on
ya. You've had other problems with this bass too as memory serves?


--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Todd H." <bmiawmb@toddh.net> wrote in message
news:84fy6fi17d.fsf@ripco.com...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting
>> 40-50
>> hours out of a set of batteries,
>
>
> That's a lot shorter than my experience with the same bass. I wonder
> if you have a power supply decoupling capacitor that has gone leaky on
> ya. You've had other problems with this bass too as memory serves?

Just a couple of broken battery wires. And, I get really tired after
practicing for 5 hours straight.

[Ian Hayward]

Here's the one used on Status basses:

http://www.status-graphite.com/status/carts3/frames/frame4.htm

If that link doesn't go straight to it, go to spare parts/battery boxes and
scroll down. This is reliable and easy to use, even for an on-stage change
if you make sure the battery is the right way round, and they mail to US.

May help...

Ian

"BW" <barrybassist@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>> > jam
>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>> > passive
>> > circuitry?
>>
>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>>
>> --
>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
>> / \
>> http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>
> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>

[JoeSpareBedroom]

That's slick!


"Ian Hayward" <ianm.hayward@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:775_h.5237$%9.3794@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> Here's the one used on Status basses:
>
> http://www.status-graphite.com/status/carts3/frames/frame4.htm
>
> If that link doesn't go straight to it, go to spare parts/battery boxes
> and scroll down. This is reliable and easy to use, even for an on-stage
> change if you make sure the battery is the right way round, and they mail
> to US.
>
> May help...
>
> Ian
>
> "BW" <barrybassist@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1178121756.960168.80020@h2g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
>> On May 2, 11:09 am, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
>>> > jam
>>> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
>>> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
>>> > passive
>>> > circuitry?
>>>
>>> Yup. Without a battery, you can't have an actual active electronic
>>> element, so boosting anything isn't an option.
>>>
>>> --
>>> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
>>> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
>>> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
>>> / \
>>> http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/|http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
>>
>> If the bass is thick enough, and you don't mind some surgery, you
>> might consider installing the kind of battery compartment you see on
>> many modern active basses. Flip top cover, hard wired (no wires to
>> break, which I relate to - happened to me once at a gig. Carried an
>> extra connector. Lucky...), can't be too expensive an operation.
>>
>
>

[Jeff Witkop]

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting 40-50
> hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to make
> sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out. The bass will
> play with batteries down to around 6.8 volts, although it begins to sound a
> bit dead. Shortly thereafter, it just dies. My main issue with the batteries
> is that the process of checking them involves (obviously) flexing wires each
> time. Peavey used really lousy battery clips in this bass, so both ground
> wires recently detached themselves. I'm about to install better clips, but
> even so, I wonder how long they'll last.
>
Same problem with my Cirrus. Also have similar issues with my Lakeland.

[Derek Tearne]

JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting 40-50
> hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to make
> sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out.

I can see how that would get irritating. The batteries should (and in
most active basses do) last longer than that. The solution to your
problem isn't to go passive, you could also get a different active
circuit that has decent battery life.

One of my Wal basses had a problem with the output jack from new which
meant it wasn't disconnecting the battery when the jack was removed. It
was around 3 or 4 months before I discovered the problem (and fixed it
in 5 minutes). I change the batteries every year just to be sure, but a
couple of times I've gone nearly 2 years. Apart from the situation with
the bad jack the batteries have never gone flat on me.

> What I'd really like is a way of determining voltage without having to pop
> out the batteries. Perhaps I'll start a trend: Old fashioned needle-style
> meters on the front of the instrument, and a test button. :-)

My understanding is that you can construct a test device using a multi
meter and a stereo cable which can be used to test the battery without
unplugging anything. This won't work with all active basses - only the
ones which use the jack to complete the circuit - but it's worth a go.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[Derek Tearne]

Brian Running <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote:

> > I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
> > into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
> > wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
> the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
> phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
> output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass
> player, what do I know?

EBS have a system like this which will provide phantom power to
instruments with conventional jacks, Acoustic Image combos also provide
phantom power to basses with appropriately wired XLRs (actually this is
intended for mics).

I've had my electric upright converted to use phantom power, although in
the process a problem with the battery holder was fixed and a very
greedy chip was replaced with a much less hungry one so battery life has
increased significantly anyway.

The issue is that you still need a battery in your bass for the times
when phantom power isn't available. It's not much of an issue though.

Oh, if you think persuading the sound guy to use the DI in your
amplifier head is hard, try persuading the sound guy to run from the DI
in your bass!

Incidentally four of my basses have XLR out sockets, only one can use
phantom power - the one converted specifically with that in mind. The
battery life in the others is so long though, that it isn't a concern
for me.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[Derek Tearne]

Ian Hayward <ianm.hayward@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> This is reliable and easy to use, even for an on-stage change
> if you make sure the battery is the right way round, and they mail to US.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Battery_clips_and_holde
rs/Battery_Boxes.html

--- Derek


--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxj6o0.19vbrwa1gquzm1N%derek@url.co.nz...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a Peavey Cirrus. I always unplug when not playing. I'm getting
>> 40-50
>> hours out of a set of batteries, and the jack *has* been checked to make
>> sure it's really shutting things off when the plug is out.
>
> I can see how that would get irritating. The batteries should (and in
> most active basses do) last longer than that. The solution to your
> problem isn't to go passive, you could also get a different active
> circuit that has decent battery life.
>
> One of my Wal basses had a problem with the output jack from new which
> meant it wasn't disconnecting the battery when the jack was removed. It
> was around 3 or 4 months before I discovered the problem (and fixed it
> in 5 minutes). I change the batteries every year just to be sure, but a
> couple of times I've gone nearly 2 years. Apart from the situation with
> the bad jack the batteries have never gone flat on me.
>
>> What I'd really like is a way of determining voltage without having to
>> pop
>> out the batteries. Perhaps I'll start a trend: Old fashioned needle-style
>> meters on the front of the instrument, and a test button. :-)
>
> My understanding is that you can construct a test device using a multi
> meter and a stereo cable which can be used to test the battery without
> unplugging anything. This won't work with all active basses - only the
> ones which use the jack to complete the circuit - but it's worth a go.
>
> --- Derek

Are the electrical characteristics of pickups consistent enough that I might
be able to change the circuit board and keep the pickups?

[Les Cargill]

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most passive
> circuitry?

Yes. I don't know of any hipass filters on electric basses - it
sorta needs some gain to work well.

> If not, some brand name/model examples would be appreciated. This
> 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
>
>

Geez, how often does it eat a battery? I change the 9V on my EMG
PBass set every two years, and it usually spends a couple more as a
guitar pedal battery after that. I've never had one pulled out that
was even dying.

--
Les Cargill

[Mike Rieves]

"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
> The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a jam
> session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
> appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
Yes, all passive bass tone controls I've ever seen have been high cut
types. Anything else is just too lossy for a passive pickup.

[Mike Rieves]

"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:RT2_h.19898$JZ3.5194@newssvr13.news.prodigy.n et...
>> I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could
>> plug into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to
>> the wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
> the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
> phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
> output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass player,
> what do I know?

Not a bad idea, the 48V phantom power will give you tons of headroom,
assuming that you can find active bass electronics that will accept voltage
that high, most are designed for 9V operation. If not, you could install a
voltage regulator IC to knock the voltage down to 9V.
I seem to remember a seeing bass like that designed for studio use
somewhere, but it was probably a custom one-of model.

[js]

I've played active basses most of my life. Even though I think they have a
lot of advantages, they are still a massive pain in the ass.

The batteries are a BIG problem. You can SAY it's no big deal; that you only
need to change them every 12 mos. But it's when they die out at say, 10 mos
in the middle of your big gig and you want to chop the bass into firewood,
that it becomes a BIG DEAL. It's like being "a little bit pregnant"; when
the battery goes, it goes and there's nothing you can do.

Which brings me to the second problem - the active circuit itself. There are
a LOT of things that can go wrong here.

First off, you can have battery drain caused by a stuck switching jack. Or
it can be touching the cavity shielding paint by a C-hair. None of which
you'll realize until after the 4th battery that month dies on a gig.

Then you add in the fact that 99% of soundmen don't have a CLUE about active
basses. I've had guys totally fuck up a gig by leaving the "phase' switch in
the wrong position. I've had guys who tried to hook me up to phantom power,
both intentionally and otherwise. I've spent literally hours trying to track
down noise in the studio, only to find that the culprit was a BALANCED cable
inserted in my jack to allegedly REDUCE noise - which also drained my new
battery...And whenever you bring up these points, their first instinct is to
ignore them and blame the battery.

Or instead of realizing that I'm giving them a nice hot, clean signal for
which they can turn down the pad and still have a lot of sound, lot of
inexperienced engineers CRUSH it with compression, so they can leave the
bass levels where they were "told" to leave them.


It's like you have to have a degree from DeVry just so you can maintain the
thing, AND tell everyone else how to do make you sound good...

And then there are the geniuses out there who wonder why their amp is
distorting if the bass EQ is on 11 AND the 18v onboard EQ is ALSO maxed out.
But I won't go there for now...

--
Check out my band, West Eats Meat http://www.myspace.com/westeatsmeat

My Homepage, Back By Popular Demand: http://www.jmsjazz.com

"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it
comes out."

- Bill Hicks









"Clive - Selectron" <clive@selectron-uk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4638a831$0$5854$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshostin g.com...
> Why is the battery a problem?
> I can only speak from a personal
> perspective (ignoring the fact that I distribute
> EMG in the UK) in that you'll get around 3000 hrs
> life from the battery powering f'rinstance a Jazz set
> which is around 750 4 hr gigs....assuming you pull
> the cable out when not in use.
> Some early actives were juicy...I had an Aria SB-1000
> that needed an 18v supply and ate batteries but modern
> actives are very low consumption.
> I change battery every year to be on the safe side
> and it always has plenty left...never a problem.
> Passive tone circuits will only cut treble and you lose
> even more in the cable with Hi-z passive p/ups.
> Nothing at all wrong with 'em...you pays yer money etc
> but I don't see why changing the battery every 12 or even
> 24 months is a problem.
>
> --
> Clive P Norris
> Managing Director
> Selectron (UK) Ltd
> Musical Equipment Distribution.
> www.skullstrings.com
> www.espguitars.co.uk
> www.emgpickups.co.uk
> www.tube-shop.com
> www.coreoneproduct.com
> www.whirlwindusa.com
> www.espshop.co.uk
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:XR_Zh.7664$B25.6986@news01.roc.ny...
> > The only passive bass I've played recently has been an old Fender at a
jam
> > session. Based on that example only, it seems that the tone control is
> > nothing but a high cut thing. Is that pretty much the case with most
> > passive circuitry? If not, some brand name/model examples would be
> > appreciated. This 9v battery thing is getting annoying (yet again).
> >
>
>

[Derek Tearne]

js <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Then you add in the fact that 99% of soundmen don't have a CLUE about active
> basses. I've had guys totally fuck up a gig by leaving the "phase' switch in
> the wrong position.

What is this 'phase' switch, and why would anyone think it needed to be
set differently for active/passive basses? I'm aware of changing phase
for acoustic instruments that may be positioned in such a way as to be
acoustically out of phase with the PA - but those switches make little
or no difference to the sound of solid bodied instruments.

> I've had guys who tried to hook me up to phantom power,
> both intentionally and otherwise.

I find this completely astonishing. Firstly, most people, including
sound people, usually don't even know that any given bass is active.
Even if they did, unless you're connecting the bass using an XLR cable
how would they even attempt to do that? I've got a bass that will
accept phantom power, my head starts to spin just thinking about trying
to persuade a random sound person to turn phantom power on for it.
Having them attempt to without first asking is really weird.

> I've spent literally hours trying to track
> down noise in the studio, only to find that the culprit was a BALANCED cable
> inserted in my jack to allegedly REDUCE noise - which also drained my new
> battery...

Would that even have worked with a passive bass?

> And whenever you bring up these points, their first instinct is to
> ignore them and blame the battery.

Amen to that.

As I've said elsewhere in the thread the batteries in my Wal basses
really just don't go flat unless the jack is faulty.

What *is* a hassle is the several times I've had to take the battery out
and *prove* to the sound guys that the battery is not flat - there are
something like 9 screws to remove to get the cover off so this is a
major pain just before one is about to play a set.

Every time I've had to do this it has turned out to be a problem with
the supplied backline gear, the desk in the studio, or someone elses
cable - never a flat battery.






--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxl1cd.17g9e3ccfm051N%derek@url.co.nz...
> js <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Then you add in the fact that 99% of soundmen don't have a CLUE about
>> active
>> basses. I've had guys totally fuck up a gig by leaving the "phase' switch
>> in
>> the wrong position.
>
> What is this 'phase' switch, and why would anyone think it needed to be
> set differently for active/passive basses? I'm aware of changing phase
> for acoustic instruments that may be positioned in such a way as to be
> acoustically out of phase with the PA - but those switches make little
> or no difference to the sound of solid bodied instruments.
>
>> I've had guys who tried to hook me up to phantom power,
>> both intentionally and otherwise.
>
> I find this completely astonishing. Firstly, most people, including
> sound people, usually don't even know that any given bass is active.
> Even if they did, unless you're connecting the bass using an XLR cable
> how would they even attempt to do that? I've got a bass that will
> accept phantom power, my head starts to spin just thinking about trying
> to persuade a random sound person to turn phantom power on for it.
> Having them attempt to without first asking is really weird.
>
>> I've spent literally hours trying to track
>> down noise in the studio, only to find that the culprit was a BALANCED
>> cable
>> inserted in my jack to allegedly REDUCE noise - which also drained my new
>> battery...
>
> Would that even have worked with a passive bass?
>
>> And whenever you bring up these points, their first instinct is to
>> ignore them and blame the battery.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> As I've said elsewhere in the thread the batteries in my Wal basses
> really just don't go flat unless the jack is faulty.
>
> What *is* a hassle is the several times I've had to take the battery out
> and *prove* to the sound guys that the battery is not flat - there are
> something like 9 screws to remove to get the cover off so this is a
> major pain just before one is about to play a set.

I just looked at the Peavey's access hatch (the big one for the circuit
board). I have room to mount a female banana plug jack and a miniature
momentary contact pushbutton. Hmm....plug in a volt meter, push the button
to disconnect the batteries from the circuit board, problem solved.

[Steve]

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

>
> Are the electrical characteristics of pickups consistent enough that I might
> be able to change the circuit board and keep the pickups?
>
>

Unless Peavey did something weird with the pickups on that bass, you
should be able to do that. I have identical Bartolini 2-band preamps in
three of my basses: a 5-string with custom soapbars wound by Kent
Armstrong, a Jazz bass with Bartolini P/J pickups, and my EURB with K &
K sound piezo spot transducers mounted on the bridge. The Bart preamp's
input impedance is very high, so it'll work with just about anything, it
appears.

--Steve

[js]

I'll just cut to the chase and reiterate that it's because they're clueless
about active circuitry.

If you've never encountered a phase switch (also called an "invert switch"
or phase inverter, they're on various preamps, effects, and the occasional
mixing board.

My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an active
bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal becomes
"neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.

Same goes for phantom power. Gys assume that "active" = phantom power,
because that's what the ACT rep told them in their Guitar Center product
training.

To be fair, the vast majority of the guitar/bass world is passive. But a
very significant minority is not. If you're gonna refuse to mic a cab, or
you insist that the FOH bass come only from the direct box, then you better
know what the hell you are doing...

--
Check out my band, West Eats Meat http://www.myspace.com/westeatsmeat

My Homepage, Back By Popular Demand: http://www.jmsjazz.com

"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it
comes out."

- Bill Hicks









"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxl1cd.17g9e3ccfm051N%derek@url.co.nz...
> js <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Then you add in the fact that 99% of soundmen don't have a CLUE about
active
> > basses. I've had guys totally fuck up a gig by leaving the "phase'
switch in
> > the wrong position.
>
> What is this 'phase' switch, and why would anyone think it needed to be
> set differently for active/passive basses? I'm aware of changing phase
> for acoustic instruments that may be positioned in such a way as to be
> acoustically out of phase with the PA - but those switches make little
> or no difference to the sound of solid bodied instruments.
>
> > I've had guys who tried to hook me up to phantom power,
> > both intentionally and otherwise.
>
> I find this completely astonishing. Firstly, most people, including
> sound people, usually don't even know that any given bass is active.
> Even if they did, unless you're connecting the bass using an XLR cable
> how would they even attempt to do that? I've got a bass that will
> accept phantom power, my head starts to spin just thinking about trying
> to persuade a random sound person to turn phantom power on for it.
> Having them attempt to without first asking is really weird.
>
> > I've spent literally hours trying to track
> > down noise in the studio, only to find that the culprit was a BALANCED
cable
> > inserted in my jack to allegedly REDUCE noise - which also drained my
new
> > battery...
>
> Would that even have worked with a passive bass?
>
> > And whenever you bring up these points, their first instinct is to
> > ignore them and blame the battery.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> As I've said elsewhere in the thread the batteries in my Wal basses
> really just don't go flat unless the jack is faulty.
>
> What *is* a hassle is the several times I've had to take the battery out
> and *prove* to the sound guys that the battery is not flat - there are
> something like 9 screws to remove to get the cover off so this is a
> major pain just before one is about to play a set.
>
> Every time I've had to do this it has turned out to be a problem with
> the supplied backline gear, the desk in the studio, or someone elses
> cable - never a flat battery.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> I'll just cut to the chase and reiterate that it's because they're
> clueless
> about active circuitry.
>
> If you've never encountered a phase switch (also called an "invert switch"
> or phase inverter, they're on various preamps, effects, and the occasional
> mixing board.
>
> My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
> either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
> cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an active
> bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal becomes
> "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.
>
> Same goes for phantom power. Gys assume that "active" = phantom power,
> because that's what the ACT rep told them in their Guitar Center product
> training.
>
> To be fair, the vast majority of the guitar/bass world is passive. But a
> very significant minority is not. If you're gonna refuse to mic a cab, or
> you insist that the FOH bass come only from the direct box, then you
> better
> know what the hell you are doing...


I've only been set upon by sound techs in one club, and it sounds like I got
lucky. They asked us to play a song or two and see how low we could adjust
our volume so things were comfortable for us on stage. Then, they said "Go
enjoy the buffet table for a little while", and they descended on the stage
to wire/mic the various players. All they did with me was plug into the
balanced output from my Ampeg. No questions about active/passive, shoe size,
etc. One more sound check, and we were all set. All they asked was that if
we couldn't hear ourselves later, please take a moment to let them work with
monitor volume.

Good buffet, too.

[Jim Carr]

"js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

> My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
> either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
> cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an active
> bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal becomes
> "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.

I don't agree. If you put an electric bass into mixer input, you should be
able to toggle the phase switch and not notice any difference.

http://music.concordia.ca/Programs/Electroacoustics/M50_mixer/Mixer_Terms.html#anchor3066886

The Phase switch is used to invert the signal phase of a microphone input.

It is used if a cancellation of frequencies is perceived between two or more
mic inputs. This "phasiness" can be caused by faulty wiring or poor
placement of two or more mics with respect to each other. A loss of low
frequency when "mono"ing a mix is often a sign of an out-of-phase signal in
the mix.

http://www.fender.com/support/manuals/pdfs/instr_owners/Fishman_Prefix_Pro_Blend.pdf

WHAT IS PHASE?
Phase is the relationship between two signals or sound waves originating
from the same instrument. For our purposes, phase relationships are
expressed as being either "in phase" or "out of phase". In phase tends to
enhance, while out of phase tends to suppress the natural characteristics
and acoustic tendencies of an instrument. A simple way to determine the
quality of phase (in or out) of two sounds is to compare phase switch
settings at low volumes.
IN PHASE
In phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the same
instrument are similarly aligned in time. Similar phase is like looking at
yourself in a mirror: your reflection directly follows your movement.
OUT OF PHASE
Out of phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the same
instrument are aligned such that the upper peak of one wave occurs at the
same moment in time as the lower peak of the other. Out of phase is like
looking at yourself in a live video monitor; the image you see is similar,
but the perspective is shifted. When you move to the right, the image
appears to move to your left.
WHY DO I NEED A PHASE SWITCH ?
The phase switch is useful for two reasons:
1. Due to the interactive and changing nature of phase, acoustic
amplification depends on maintaining optimum phase relationships between
amplified instruments, sound systems and venues.
2. Since an industry standard for polarity has not been established for all
sound equipment, the phase switch can compensate for any unintentional
differences that might occur between instrument and sound system.


http://www.kevinkemp.com/homerecordingtutorial/micing.htm

A very good explanation of phasing including audio samples.

[Benj]

Brian Running wrote:
> > I had this crazy idea involving an external battery holder that could plug
> > into the bass. The holder would clip onto my strap, right next to the
> > wireless transmitter. I'm encumbered anyway. Why not make it worse?
>
> I had this crazy idea that active basses could run on phantom power from
> the amp. Eliminate batteries altogether, eliminate ancient unreliable
> phone plugs and jacks and switch to locking XLRs, give basses a balanced
> output -- seems like a good idea to me. But hell, I'm just a bass
> player, what do I know?

And I had this crazy idea to look into all these options! Since I do
play a lot through a DI and the PA it would be VERY cool to have an
XLR output bass. Playing through the PA means you'd like to have lots
of tone control ON the bass because you don't have the amp knobs to do
it anymore. Phantom power eliminates battery hassles and even better
lets you crank come current which means FAR more complex electronics
can be built into the bass. (My fav idea is a bunch of EQ presets sort
of like my BP-8 pedal...HELL Build the whole "pedal" in there!!!

The serious downside to all this is that everything else in the world
is designed around phone plugs. Plus the XLR output has to be lower to
match mic levels to the PA while the normal bass cord is pretty high
voltage in comparison. So this led me to the NEXT thoughts. Use a
STEREO TRS cord on your bass and feed 9 volts into the "ring"
connection. Note that this usually is the "ground" side of internal 9
volt battery that acts like the battery switch when you pull the plug
out. So the "ring' terminal usually grounds on the side of a normal
two-wire phone plug. With the stereo plug you are feeding 9 volts into
the ground side of the battery so either the bass must be able to take
18 volts OR you have to have a switch that removes the internal
battery when using external power. If you always use external power, a
little shorted clip that snaps on where the battery does would work.

The downside of this scheme is that when you plug a TRS plug into a
phone jack on the way in the ring and tip connections short against
the jack body (hole) so that means the 9 volt power supply MUST be
short circuit protected so keep from smoking it if you happen to
forget to plug all cords with the power off. Still it's a pretty
simple mod and I've seriously considered putting the power mod in my
amps just for drill. The only reason I haven't yet is that I'm with
the rest of you guys in that all my batteries last so long, it's never
a hassle.

Benj

[Benj]

Mike Rieves wrote:

> Yes, all passive bass tone controls I've ever seen have been high cut
> types. Anything else is just too lossy for a passive pickup.

Usually true but not completely. G&L basses have a passive mode with
treble and bass controls that keep working. Since they only cut you
have to use them a tad different. You sort of set them in the middle
and then go boost the bass and treble on the amp to bring the EQ back
flat. This then allows the passive controls to both "boost" and cut.
Of course the G&L is active as well. So if you flip to active a bit of
treble boost is added to make it a tad brighter as well as being
active. And then there is a third position which is active with gobs
of treble boost for slapping frenzies and the like. The three modes
are VERY compatible and I'd have never believed this before I got the
G&L, but usually mine sits in passive mode because there is this
certain kind of inexplicable "vibe" to the tone in passive. It's a
very minor tone thing but I swear it's there! But as far as I know
the G&L is the only passive bass without the usual "toy" tone
control.

benj

[Benj]

Derek Tearne wrote:

> As I've said elsewhere in the thread the batteries in my Wal basses
> really just don't go flat unless the jack is faulty.
>
> What *is* a hassle is the several times I've had to take the battery out
> and *prove* to the sound guys that the battery is not flat - there are
> something like 9 screws to remove to get the cover off so this is a
> major pain just before one is about to play a set.
>
> Every time I've had to do this it has turned out to be a problem with
> the supplied backline gear, the desk in the studio, or someone elses
> cable - never a flat battery.

Whine all you guys want, but I've found the best solution for battery
problems (but alas, not always the people problems) is to install flip-
out 9 volt battery holders. I use Carvin holders. The older ones they
used to sell were kind of "iffy" but the ones they sell now are VERY
nice! I don't trust myself with a router and an expensive bass so the
local luthier puts them in for me Usually the cost is reasonably low
( about $49+ holder if I recall correctly). If you want to boost a
bass to 18 volts you have two holders put in. The flip-out holders and
a couple of new batteries in your bass case solves all problems Shelf
life on the batteries is YEARS (check the expiration date on the
bubble card). Any and all wondering about battery condition solve with
one quick operation. No tiny screws that you don't have the right
screw driver for, no chance those impossible to replace tiny screws
will fall toward the stage floor only to shoot THROUGH the floor into
TIME never to be seen again! Nope. See? New battery. Flip, flip! See,
sound still sucks. Must be you!

I strongly urge flip-top holders of some decent type on all your
active basses. The older Carvin ones would at times develop connection
problems and static would ensue. Don't go too cheap on this.

Benj

[Benj]

Jim Carr wrote:
> "js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
> > either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
> > cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an active
> > bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal becomes
> > "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.
>
> I don't agree. If you put an electric bass into mixer input, you should be
> able to toggle the phase switch and not notice any difference.
>
> http://music.concordia.ca/Programs/Electroacoustics/M50_mixer/Mixer_Terms.html#anchor3066886
>
> The Phase switch is used to invert the signal phase of a microphone input.
>
> It is used if a cancellation of frequencies is perceived between two or more
> mic inputs. This "phasiness" can be caused by faulty wiring or poor
> placement of two or more mics with respect to each other. A loss of low
> frequency when "mono"ing a mix is often a sign of an out-of-phase signal in
> the mix.
>
> http://www.fender.com/support/manuals/pdfs/instr_owners/Fishman_Prefix_Pro_Blend.pdf
>
> WHAT IS PHASE?
> Phase is the relationship between two signals or sound waves originating
> from the same instrument. For our purposes, phase relationships are
> expressed as being either "in phase" or "out of phase". In phase tends to
> enhance, while out of phase tends to suppress the natural characteristics
> and acoustic tendencies of an instrument. A simple way to determine the
> quality of phase (in or out) of two sounds is to compare phase switch
> settings at low volumes.
> IN PHASE
> In phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the same
> instrument are similarly aligned in time. Similar phase is like looking at
> yourself in a mirror: your reflection directly follows your movement.
> OUT OF PHASE
> Out of phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the same
> instrument are aligned such that the upper peak of one wave occurs at the
> same moment in time as the lower peak of the other. Out of phase is like
> looking at yourself in a live video monitor; the image you see is similar,
> but the perspective is shifted. When you move to the right, the image
> appears to move to your left.
> WHY DO I NEED A PHASE SWITCH ?
> The phase switch is useful for two reasons:
> 1. Due to the interactive and changing nature of phase, acoustic
> amplification depends on maintaining optimum phase relationships between
> amplified instruments, sound systems and venues.
> 2. Since an industry standard for polarity has not been established for all
> sound equipment, the phase switch can compensate for any unintentional
> differences that might occur between instrument and sound system.
>
>
> http://www.kevinkemp.com/homerecordingtutorial/micing.htm
>
> A very good explanation of phasing including audio samples.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1178349155.711546.219250@y80g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Derek Tearne wrote:
>
>> As I've said elsewhere in the thread the batteries in my Wal basses
>> really just don't go flat unless the jack is faulty.
>>
>> What *is* a hassle is the several times I've had to take the battery out
>> and *prove* to the sound guys that the battery is not flat - there are
>> something like 9 screws to remove to get the cover off so this is a
>> major pain just before one is about to play a set.
>>
>> Every time I've had to do this it has turned out to be a problem with
>> the supplied backline gear, the desk in the studio, or someone elses
>> cable - never a flat battery.
>
> Whine all you guys want, but I've found the best solution for battery
> problems (but alas, not always the people problems) is to install flip-
> out 9 volt battery holders. I use Carvin holders. The older ones they
> used to sell were kind of "iffy" but the ones they sell now are VERY
> nice! I don't trust myself with a router and an expensive bass so the
> local luthier puts them in for me Usually the cost is reasonably low
> ( about $49+ holder if I recall correctly). If you want to boost a
> bass to 18 volts you have two holders put in. The flip-out holders and
> a couple of new batteries in your bass case solves all problems Shelf
> life on the batteries is YEARS (check the expiration date on the
> bubble card). Any and all wondering about battery condition solve with
> one quick operation. No tiny screws that you don't have the right
> screw driver for, no chance those impossible to replace tiny screws
> will fall toward the stage floor only to shoot THROUGH the floor into
> TIME never to be seen again! Nope. See? New battery. Flip, flip! See,
> sound still sucks. Must be you!
>
> I strongly urge flip-top holders of some decent type on all your
> active basses. The older Carvin ones would at times develop connection
> problems and static would ensue. Don't go too cheap on this.
>
> Benj
>

This kind?
http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=9B&CID=EP

[Mike Fleming]

In article <hOt_h.7928$ya1.7567@news02.roc.ny>, "JoeSpareBedroom"
<dishborealis@yahoo.com> writes:

> I just looked at the Peavey's access hatch (the big one for the circuit
> board). I have room to mount a female banana plug jack and a miniature
> momentary contact pushbutton. Hmm....plug in a volt meter, push the button
> to disconnect the batteries from the circuit board, problem solved.

Youd be better off not disconnecting the batteries, in fact placing
the circuitry under load, as batteries can show a healthy 9V with no
load (the load of a typical digital multimeter is negligible) but drop
somewhat under load.

--
Mike Fleming

[Mike Fleming]

In article <463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "js"
<NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> writes:

> My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
> either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
> cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an active
> bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal becomes
> "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.

Can't see how it would make any difference. In fact, I can't see how
(other than not using a mono jack in the bass's output socket) there
would be any difference whatsoever between an active and a passive
bass in that respect. After all, both are sources of AC at reasonably
constant impedances, and (at least with the ones that I own) at
similar signal levels.

--
Mike Fleming

[Mike Fleming]

In article <1178349155.711546.219250@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups. com>,
Benj <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> writes:

> Whine all you guys want, but I've found the best solution for battery
> problems (but alas, not always the people problems) is to install flip-
> out 9 volt battery holders. I use Carvin holders.

Do those have built-in spring contacts or do they use the normal
clips?

The Warwicks have easily accessed batteries - for some reason they
went from a separate battery compartment to a combined battery and
electronics compartment. I always carry two spare rechargable PP3s
(which hopefully are charged...) for the wireless, so one of those can
always be put into service if necessary.

--
Mike Fleming

[miguelito]

In article <YT1_h.7821$ya1.5473@news02.roc.ny>,
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This is a Peavey Cirrus.

Hey Joe

Where you going with tha... Sorry! I had a Cirrus and now have a USA
Millenium and a battery change every year or two whether you need it or
not should be the rule for those electronics. I suggest you contact
Peavey. They have been really helpful to me when I've needed parts or
advice, even (especially) for stuff I bought used.

[Mike Rieves]

"Jim Carr" <newsgroups@azwebpages.com> wrote in message
news:gFL_h.128004$mJ1.112379@newsfe22.lga...
> "js" <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>> My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
>> either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
>> cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an
>> active
>> bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal
>> becomes
>> "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.
>
> I don't agree. If you put an electric bass into mixer input, you should be
> able to toggle the phase switch and not notice any difference.
>
> http://music.concordia.ca/Programs/Electroacoustics/M50_mixer/Mixer_Terms.html#anchor3066886
>
> The Phase switch is used to invert the signal phase of a microphone input.

If you invert the phase of a bass guitar, it will definitely make a
difference, especially on the low notes. Some bass amps' output is inverted
from the inputs and if the amp is loud enough, and close enough to the PA
subs, you'll definitely notice an improvement by inverting the bass guitar
signal at the board if you're DI-ing directly from the bass.


> It is used if a cancellation of frequencies is perceived between two or
> more mic inputs. This "phasiness" can be caused by faulty wiring or poor
> placement of two or more mics with respect to each other. A loss of low
> frequency when "mono"ing a mix is often a sign of an out-of-phase signal
> in the mix.
>
> http://www.fender.com/support/manuals/pdfs/instr_owners/Fishman_Prefix_Pro_Blend.pdf
>
> WHAT IS PHASE?
> Phase is the relationship between two signals or sound waves originating
> from the same instrument. For our purposes, phase relationships are
> expressed as being either "in phase" or "out of phase". In phase tends to
> enhance, while out of phase tends to suppress the natural characteristics
> and acoustic tendencies of an instrument. A simple way to determine the
> quality of phase (in or out) of two sounds is to compare phase switch
> settings at low volumes.
> IN PHASE
> In phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the same
> instrument are similarly aligned in time. Similar phase is like looking at
> yourself in a mirror: your reflection directly follows your movement.
> OUT OF PHASE
> Out of phase is when the wave forms of two sounds originating from the
> same instrument are aligned such that the upper peak of one wave occurs at
> the same moment in time as the lower peak of the other. Out of phase is
> like looking at yourself in a live video monitor; the image you see is
> similar, but the perspective is shifted. When you move to the right, the
> image appears to move to your left.
> WHY DO I NEED A PHASE SWITCH ?
> The phase switch is useful for two reasons:
> 1. Due to the interactive and changing nature of phase, acoustic
> amplification depends on maintaining optimum phase relationships between
> amplified instruments, sound systems and venues.
> 2. Since an industry standard for polarity has not been established for
> all sound equipment, the phase switch can compensate for any unintentional
> differences that might occur between instrument and sound system.
>
>
> http://www.kevinkemp.com/homerecordingtutorial/micing.htm
>
> A very good explanation of phasing including audio samples.
Yep, some amps invert the input signal and some don't and rarely is
whether the amp inverts or not in the product literature, so a phase switch
is a handy thing to have. Fortunately, it usually doesn't matter except at
low frequencies, and usually there is enough distance between sources that
might be out of phase and enough difference in level that the sound is not
affected all that much.

[Mike Rieves]

"Mike Fleming" <{mike}@tauzero.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4e3q33h8brpiba4uco5mrqcavtbhvusqvi@4ax.com...
> In article <463acf4d$0$4700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "js"
> <NOSPAM@carolina.rr.com> writes:
>
>> My understanding is that they essentially flip the hot and neutral lines,
>> either to try and eliminate hum, or to take advantage of the phase
>> cancellation for a different sound. When you invert the phase on an
>> active
>> bass, you're basically electrifying the "switch", while the signal
>> becomes
>> "neutral". The result is either noise and hum, or no sound at all.
>
> Can't see how it would make any difference. In fact, I can't see how
> (other than not using a mono jack in the bass's output socket) there
> would be any difference whatsoever between an active and a passive
> bass in that respect. After all, both are sources of AC at reasonably
> constant impedances, and (at least with the ones that I own) at
> similar signal levels.
>

The reason it matters is that if you have two speakers close to each other
reproducing the same signal out of phase with each other, you're going to
get phase cancellation and that can lead to everything from insuffucuent
bottom end to weird comb filtering effects.

[Mike Fleming]

In article <bAe%h.8733$F11.474@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Mike Rieves"
<mriev@hotspam.com> writes:

> "Mike Fleming" <{mike}@tauzero.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4e3q33h8brpiba4uco5mrqcavtbhvusqvi@4ax.com...
> >
> > Can't see how it would make any difference. In fact, I can't see how
> > (other than not using a mono jack in the bass's output socket) there
> > would be any difference whatsoever between an active and a passive
> > bass in that respect. After all, both are sources of AC at reasonably
> > constant impedances, and (at least with the ones that I own) at
> > similar signal levels.
>
> The reason it matters is that if you have two speakers close to each other
> reproducing the same signal out of phase with each other, you're going to
> get phase cancellation and that can lead to everything from insuffucuent
> bottom end to weird comb filtering effects.

Presumably not applicable if you're just DIing to the PA and not using
a backline amp too?

But js gave this as specifically an active bass problem, which was
really my point. Why would an active bass be a problem and a passive
bass not?

--
Mike Fleming

[Mike Rieves]

"Mike Fleming" <{mike}@tauzero.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r6cu339qp0gqo0s7jh34rvvq6aadhkb10n@4ax.com...
> In article <bAe%h.8733$F11.474@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Mike Rieves"
> <mriev@hotspam.com> writes:
>
>> "Mike Fleming" <{mike}@tauzero.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:4e3q33h8brpiba4uco5mrqcavtbhvusqvi@4ax.com...
>> >
>> > Can't see how it would make any difference. In fact, I can't see how
>> > (other than not using a mono jack in the bass's output socket) there
>> > would be any difference whatsoever between an active and a passive
>> > bass in that respect. After all, both are sources of AC at reasonably
>> > constant impedances, and (at least with the ones that I own) at
>> > similar signal levels.
>>
>> The reason it matters is that if you have two speakers close to each
>> other
>> reproducing the same signal out of phase with each other, you're going to
>> get phase cancellation and that can lead to everything from insuffucuent
>> bottom end to weird comb filtering effects.
>
> Presumably not applicable if you're just DIing to the PA and not using
> a backline amp too?
>
> But js gave this as specifically an active bass problem, which was
> really my point. Why would an active bass be a problem and a passive
> bass not?
>
In certain active systems, signal ground is tied to power ground and if
the phase switch actually switches the input polarity, you effectively
ground the input signal, getting no output from the instrument. I doubt that
any modern active systems do this, but it might happen with some vintage
active instruments, especially if you were trying to power them with phantom
power. As far as the cabinet phasing is concerned, it makes no difference
whether the instrument is active or passive.