Why UNcalibrate a tuner?

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
other than A-440?

[Derek Tearne]

JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
> other than A-440?

1. Bagpipes (Highland bagpipes are tuned extremely sharp. Their 'A' has
drifted upwards through the years until is somwhere sharp of our Bb).
I'm sure there are other instruments which fall into this category.

2. You arrive at the bar and discover that, for a whole lot of arcane
reasons, the piano has been tuned a quarter tone flat.

3. You are playing early (or avante garde) music which was written when
the 'standard' pitch for A was not A440

4. You are not playing with western musicians (or those who's pitch
standard was set by recent western classical music).

5. The lead guitarist has an old strobe tuner with vacuum tubes which
disagrees with your modern guitar tuner. After a long and bitter fight
you decided it was easier to adjust your own tuner than 'prove' the
guitarist wrong.

6. For when "Close enough for rock 'n' roll" isn't good enough.

I'm sure there are other reasons.

You have to remember that A440 as a standard is relatively recent, and
really only applies to certain schools of western classical music.

It has also been adopted by western popular music (the sort of stuff
most of us play) and I think this is due to the only people in the band
(or recording studio) who knew about these things having been exposed to
western classical music. Also the people who made pitch checking
devices - tuning forks, pitch pipes etc. in europe and the US would make
them with A440 as the reference. So western pop adopted A440 because
that's what the tuning devices intended for classical music.

Now, most of the recent tuning devices are electronic, and designed by
people who know more about music, styles and pitch than most of the
people who use their equipment. Calibration is useful for many reasons
(as listed above) so they put it on almost all tuners.

Some of the more esoteric tuners (eg. Korg orchestral, peterson strobes)
also have the ability to select temperament and other things most of us
will never need to worry about.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[Derek Tearne]

A little more historical information on the changes of standard pitch
over time can be found here.

http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

I also discovered that A440 was finally enshrined as an international
standard in 1975 when ISO 16 was published.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxdm63.1n6xg32aiaerhN%derek@url.co.nz...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
>> other than A-440?
>
> 1. Bagpipes (Highland bagpipes are tuned extremely sharp. Their 'A' has
> drifted upwards through the years until is somwhere sharp of our Bb).
> I'm sure there are other instruments which fall into this category.
>
> 2. You arrive at the bar and discover that, for a whole lot of arcane
> reasons, the piano has been tuned a quarter tone flat.
>
> 3. You are playing early (or avante garde) music which was written when
> the 'standard' pitch for A was not A440
>
> 4. You are not playing with western musicians (or those who's pitch
> standard was set by recent western classical music).
>
> 5. The lead guitarist has an old strobe tuner with vacuum tubes which
> disagrees with your modern guitar tuner. After a long and bitter fight
> you decided it was easier to adjust your own tuner than 'prove' the
> guitarist wrong.
>
> 6. For when "Close enough for rock 'n' roll" isn't good enough.
>
> I'm sure there are other reasons.
>
> You have to remember that A440 as a standard is relatively recent, and
> really only applies to certain schools of western classical music.
>
> It has also been adopted by western popular music (the sort of stuff
> most of us play) and I think this is due to the only people in the band
> (or recording studio) who knew about these things having been exposed to
> western classical music. Also the people who made pitch checking
> devices - tuning forks, pitch pipes etc. in europe and the US would make
> them with A440 as the reference. So western pop adopted A440 because
> that's what the tuning devices intended for classical music.
>
> Now, most of the recent tuning devices are electronic, and designed by
> people who know more about music, styles and pitch than most of the
> people who use their equipment. Calibration is useful for many reasons
> (as listed above) so they put it on almost all tuners.
>
> Some of the more esoteric tuners (eg. Korg orchestral, peterson strobes)
> also have the ability to select temperament and other things most of us
> will never need to worry about.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>


Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely screwed
up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.

[Javier]

JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely screwed
> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>

Be very careful with that tuner - the screen is very fragile. I dropped
mine from waist height (a zipper not properly closed in the gig bag,
natch) and the screen now displays the letters screwed up. It seems like
it still works, so I'm tempted to check with a properly tuned instrument
and "translate" so I can keep using it.

[js]

....Not to mention that Japan's standard is A442. Apparently,they like it a
little brighter. over there. somewhere elsse usue 338. I'd also say that
when your dealing with both an atificial structure like equal tempering, and
the complex harmonies it allows, a tuning standard (or at least a constant
reference point) is almost essential.

PS: I used to work in a band that tuned to A=430. The singer (who else?) was
starting to lose her high range, and we didn't want to drop everything down
1/2 step because it would be to muddy (ah, the pre-grunge days...)

430 took her just under her "break point" for most tunes. For awhile anyway.

--
Check out my band, West Eats Meat http://www.myspace.com/westeatsmeat

My Homepage, Back By Popular Demand: http://www.jmsjazz.com

"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it
comes out."

- Bill Hicks









"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxdobt.1gsymngdsnriaN%derek@url.co.nz...
>
> A little more historical information on the changes of standard pitch
> over time can be found here.
>
> http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html
>
> I also discovered that A440 was finally enshrined as an international
> standard in 1975 when ISO 16 was published.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>

[Derek Tearne]

JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely screwed
> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.

That's true enough. I should also mention that, while we were in Japan,
almost the entire band bought CA-30's because, a) they were
astonishingly cheap and b) we specifically required the ability to tune
up to bagpipe pitch easily.

The pipers were especially excited to find the CA-30 as the Korg
orchestral tuners they were looking for are extremely expensive.

We then tried tuning up all the way to bagpipe pitch - which was around
A448 on a sunny spring day in Japan - previously we'd only ever tuned to
A445 - the highest my Boss tuner would reach. However, a couple of us
discovered that tuning higher than A446 just sounded too distressing
somehow and A448 was horrid so we ended up up back at A445. It was
cooler on stage than out the back where we were tuning so the pipes went
slightly flat and we all ended up at about the same pitch.

--- Derek


--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[Misifus]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely screwed
>> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
>> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>
> That's true enough. I should also mention that, while we were in Japan,
> almost the entire band bought CA-30's because, a) they were
> astonishingly cheap and b) we specifically required the ability to tune
> up to bagpipe pitch easily.
>
> The pipers were especially excited to find the CA-30 as the Korg
> orchestral tuners they were looking for are extremely expensive.
>
> We then tried tuning up all the way to bagpipe pitch - which was around
> A448 on a sunny spring day in Japan - previously we'd only ever tuned to
> A445 - the highest my Boss tuner would reach. However, a couple of us
> discovered that tuning higher than A446 just sounded too distressing
> somehow and A448 was horrid so we ended up up back at A445. It was
> cooler on stage than out the back where we were tuning so the pipes went
> slightly flat and we all ended up at about the same pitch.
>
> --- Derek
>
>


This sounds like Monte Python's take on tuning hell. <g>

-Raf


--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:rafseibert@suddenlink.net
blog: http://rafsrincon.blogspot.com/
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com

[Derek Tearne]

Misifus <rafseibert@suddenlink.net> wrote:

>
> This sounds like Monte Python's take on tuning hell. <g>

Before competitions and such the bagpipers tune up/warm up en-masse for
around half an hour or more to make sure everyone is in tune. If they
start out from 'cold', which is anytime they haven't played a note for
about ten minutes, the pitch will change in exciting ways over the next
5 or so minutes until the pipes are warm again.

If they warm up in an ordinary room and they, say, walk onto a hot stage
with stage lights, the pipes will change pitch.

Now, in, say, an hours set, we'll have maybe four tunes involving
bagpipes - which are usually somewhere between 5 and 7 minutes long.

So, yes, Monty Python's take on tuning hell.

That's not to say playing with highland bagpipes isn't rewarding, the
pipes are very stirring, visceral and jolly good fun. Playing in tune
with three pipers live on stage does, however, involve some 'issues'.

To get them in pitch on the CD we sped the rhythm/backing track up until
the band sounded in tune with the pipes, recorded the pipes, then
returned to concert pitch so we could add the rest of the melody
instruments. Unfortunately other bagpipers complain that the pipes
sound flat.

You can't win that kind of game.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

[ptooner]

Good answer, Derek. It also points out how silly the term "perfect pitch"
is. Or should we assume it has changed every time the pitch standard
changed? ;-)

Gerry
"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxdm63.1n6xg32aiaerhN%derek@url.co.nz...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
>> other than A-440?
>
> 1. Bagpipes (Highland bagpipes are tuned extremely sharp. Their 'A' has
> drifted upwards through the years until is somwhere sharp of our Bb).
> I'm sure there are other instruments which fall into this category.
>
> 2. You arrive at the bar and discover that, for a whole lot of arcane
> reasons, the piano has been tuned a quarter tone flat.
>
> 3. You are playing early (or avante garde) music which was written when
> the 'standard' pitch for A was not A440
>
> 4. You are not playing with western musicians (or those who's pitch
> standard was set by recent western classical music).
>
> 5. The lead guitarist has an old strobe tuner with vacuum tubes which
> disagrees with your modern guitar tuner. After a long and bitter fight
> you decided it was easier to adjust your own tuner than 'prove' the
> guitarist wrong.
>
> 6. For when "Close enough for rock 'n' roll" isn't good enough.
>
> I'm sure there are other reasons.
>
> You have to remember that A440 as a standard is relatively recent, and
> really only applies to certain schools of western classical music.
>
> It has also been adopted by western popular music (the sort of stuff
> most of us play) and I think this is due to the only people in the band
> (or recording studio) who knew about these things having been exposed to
> western classical music. Also the people who made pitch checking
> devices - tuning forks, pitch pipes etc. in europe and the US would make
> them with A440 as the reference. So western pop adopted A440 because
> that's what the tuning devices intended for classical music.
>
> Now, most of the recent tuning devices are electronic, and designed by
> people who know more about music, styles and pitch than most of the
> people who use their equipment. Calibration is useful for many reasons
> (as listed above) so they put it on almost all tuners.
>
> Some of the more esoteric tuners (eg. Korg orchestral, peterson strobes)
> also have the ability to select temperament and other things most of us
> will never need to worry about.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>

[ptooner]

I really have to wonder, how do you tell when a bagpipe is out of tune???
Gerry
"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxdp91.10f4aqgw1cjybN%derek@url.co.nz...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely
>> screwed
>> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
>> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>
> That's true enough. I should also mention that, while we were in Japan,
> almost the entire band bought CA-30's because, a) they were
> astonishingly cheap and b) we specifically required the ability to tune
> up to bagpipe pitch easily.
>
> The pipers were especially excited to find the CA-30 as the Korg
> orchestral tuners they were looking for are extremely expensive.
>
> We then tried tuning up all the way to bagpipe pitch - which was around
> A448 on a sunny spring day in Japan - previously we'd only ever tuned to
> A445 - the highest my Boss tuner would reach. However, a couple of us
> discovered that tuning higher than A446 just sounded too distressing
> somehow and A448 was horrid so we ended up up back at A445. It was
> cooler on stage than out the back where we were tuning so the pipes went
> slightly flat and we all ended up at about the same pitch.
>
> --- Derek
>
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>

[timbo]

On 2007-04-30, ptooner <someguy@onthe.net> wrote:
> I really have to wonder, how do you tell when a bagpipe is out of tune???
> Gerry

...when you can hear it...

;)

cheers,

timbo.


> "Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1hxdp91.10f4aqgw1cjybN%derek@url.co.nz...
>> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely
>>> screwed
>>> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
>>> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>>
>> That's true enough. I should also mention that, while we were in Japan,
>> almost the entire band bought CA-30's because, a) they were
>> astonishingly cheap and b) we specifically required the ability to tune
>> up to bagpipe pitch easily.
>>
>> The pipers were especially excited to find the CA-30 as the Korg
>> orchestral tuners they were looking for are extremely expensive.
>>
>> We then tried tuning up all the way to bagpipe pitch - which was around
>> A448 on a sunny spring day in Japan - previously we'd only ever tuned to
>> A445 - the highest my Boss tuner would reach. However, a couple of us
>> discovered that tuning higher than A446 just sounded too distressing
>> somehow and A448 was horrid so we ended up up back at A445. It was
>> cooler on stage than out the back where we were tuning so the pipes went
>> slightly flat and we all ended up at about the same pitch.
>>
>> --- Derek
>>
>>
>> --
>> Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
>> Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
>> http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
>>
>
>


--

http://www.skyrockats.com

[Benj]

Derek Tearne wrote:
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
> > other than A-440?

> 2. You arrive at the bar and discover that, for a whole lot of arcane
> reasons, the piano has been tuned a quarter tone flat.

Or more commonly a piano that hasn't BEEN tuned in a quarter century!

> 3. You are playing early (or avante garde) music which was written when
> the 'standard' pitch for A was not A440

Of more commonly, you are playing in a band which includes a so-called
"fixed pitch" instrument, which are the ones that while can be tuned,
they are so complex and difficult to tune that it isn't practical.
(Piano, vibes, accordion, tubular bells, harmonica, etc.) So the rest
of the band tunes to them, of as derek notes the tuner is adjusted to
agree with them. Especially true if the instrument is vintage and
dates from a non A440 period or region.

Benj

[JoeSpareBedroom]

"Derek Tearne" <derek@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1hxdp91.10f4aqgw1cjybN%derek@url.co.nz...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely
>> screwed
>> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
>> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>
> That's true enough. I should also mention that, while we were in Japan,
> almost the entire band bought CA-30's because, a) they were
> astonishingly cheap and b) we specifically required the ability to tune
> up to bagpipe pitch easily.
>
> The pipers were especially excited to find the CA-30 as the Korg
> orchestral tuners they were looking for are extremely expensive.
>
> We then tried tuning up all the way to bagpipe pitch - which was around
> A448 on a sunny spring day in Japan - previously we'd only ever tuned to
> A445 - the highest my Boss tuner would reach. However, a couple of us
> discovered that tuning higher than A446 just sounded too distressing
> somehow and A448 was horrid so we ended up up back at A445. It was
> cooler on stage than out the back where we were tuning so the pipes went
> slightly flat and we all ended up at about the same pitch.
>
> --- Derek


Although this is interesting, I find that I'm getting a headache at the
mention of bagpipes so early in the morning. (I'm reading this at 6:40 AM).

[Kloka-mo']

I just bought a CA-30 last week too, for this silly geetar I've been
pluckin' around with.

--
-rob Bartlett, TN
O>
/(\)
^^
"Javier" <jagonzal@gooooooglemail.com> wrote in message
news:2qjfg4-rek.ln1@6f06bbaf-dc83-4a61-a7f6-ba09fe2f79bf.org...
> JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation, Derek. I asked because my son completely
>> screwed
>> up his tuning this morning. The calibrate button on the CA-30 is much too
>> easy to push inadvertently. We were wondering why it even existed.
>>
>
> Be very careful with that tuner - the screen is very fragile. I dropped
> mine from waist height (a zipper not properly closed in the gig bag,
> natch) and the screen now displays the letters screwed up. It seems like
> it still works, so I'm tempted to check with a properly tuned instrument
> and "translate" so I can keep using it.

[John Doe]

I really have to wonder, how do you tell when a bagpipe is out of
tune???


One of them goes "limp".....HAHAHAHAHA

[Tom Plunket]

Derek Tearne wrote:

> > Why do some tuners have a feature which allows them to be calibrated to
> > other than A-440?
>
> 1. Bagpipes (Highland bagpipes are tuned extremely sharp. Their 'A' has
> drifted upwards through the years until is somwhere sharp of our Bb).
> I'm sure there are other instruments which fall into this category.

When I played with a piper, I just would arrange things as if it were an
Eb instrument. Why not do this versus tuning all of your other
instruments up a step and a half? (This would get particularly nasty if
you were playing with a piano or harp or anything of that ilk as well.)

-tom!

--

[Derek Tearne]

Tom Plunket <tomas@fancy.org> wrote:

> When I played with a piper, I just would arrange things as if it were an
> Eb instrument.

That is exactly what we do. Unfortunately bagpipes are still sharp with
respect to instruments tuned to concert pitch.

> Why not do this versus tuning all of your other
> instruments up a step and a half?

We tune all the other instruments about a quarter tone sharp.

The pipers have now also acquired new chanters which are supposed to
allow them to play in tune with the rest of us.

--- Derek

--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http://www.manyhands.co.nz/