View Full Version : Compressor gate / limiter ??
seawiks
03-01-2007, 01:51 PM
I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
$250 US.
RichCI
03-01-2007, 02:01 PM
On Mar 1, 12:51 pm, "seawiks" <mns...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
> Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
> all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
> switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
> $250 US.
Compressors and limiters (as well as gates) often come in one package
as they work well together.
Compressor - raises low levels up higher when they go below a
threshold.
Limiter - prevents signals from going over a threshold
Gate - turns off the signal when it goes below a threshold and opens
it again when the signal reaches up to that threshold
By manipulating compression in conjunction with limiting, you a can
"squeeze" the dynamic range of the signal so that it's never very
quiet or very loud. Since gates open and close depending on signal
level, they are best used before compression.
As a bass player, a compressor/limiter can be useful for evening
things out a bit but gating probably isn't very necessary unless you
have an unusually noisy rig or are going for some sort of special
effect.
Todd H.
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
"seawiks" <mns2nd@yahoo.com> writes:
> I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
> Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
> all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
> switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
> $250 US.
Howdy,
The canonical recommendation for compressor round here seems to be the
RNC Really Nice Compressor from FMR Audio.
http://www.fmraudio.com/RNC1773.HTM
With your budget, you can get the rack kit for it too. :-)
As a bassist, a compressor is exactly what you want to control the
dynamics between finger and slapping. Though anytime compressors get
mentioned around here we seem to end up with a long thread of the
"it's all in the fingers, a compressor means you have bad technique"
crowd and those who have a better handle on when they are actually
appropriate tools.
Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
Jim Carr
03-01-2007, 02:55 PM
"RichCI" <richci@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172772101.361097.181190@31g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
> Compressor - raises low levels up higher when they go below a
> threshold.
That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a more
detailed explanation, see www.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
Jim Carr wrote:
> "RichCI" <richci@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172772101.361097.181190@31g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>>Compressor - raises low levels up higher when they go below a
>>threshold.
>
>
> That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
> range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a more
> detailed explanation, see www.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
Technically correct. But you should know that guitarists often use them
with increased output level. This results in a tighter range signal at
a higher level, giving artificial sustain. That's how a lot of guitar
players use them.
Wrong answer for a studio guy, but right answer for most guitarists.
RichCI
03-01-2007, 03:36 PM
On Mar 1, 2:21 pm, Jim <a...@beforeyousend.com> wrote:
> Jim Carr wrote:
> > "RichCI" <ric...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1172772101.361097.181190@31g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
>
> >>Compressor - raises low levels up higher when they go below a
> >>threshold.
>
> > That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
> > range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a more
> > detailed explanation, seewww.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
>
> Technically correct. But you should know that guitarists often use them
> with increased output level. This results in a tighter range signal at
> a higher level, giving artificial sustain. That's how a lot of guitar
> players use them.
>
> Wrong answer for a studio guy, but right answer for most guitarists.
I was actually answering from a technical perspective (if incorrectly).
coreybenson
03-01-2007, 03:44 PM
On Mar 1, 12:32 pm, bmia...@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
> "seawiks" <mns...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
> > Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
> > all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
> > switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
> > $250 US.
>
> Howdy,
>
> The canonical recommendation for compressor round here seems to be the
> RNC Really Nice Compressor from FMR Audio.
>
> http://www.fmraudio.com/RNC1773.HTM
>
> With your budget, you can get the rack kit for it too. :-)
>
> As a bassist, a compressor is exactly what you want to control the
> dynamics between finger and slapping. Though anytime compressors get
> mentioned around here we seem to end up with a long thread of the
> "it's all in the fingers, a compressor means you have bad technique"
> crowd and those who have a better handle on when they are actually
> appropriate tools.
>
> Best Regards,
> --
> /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
> \ / |http://www.toddh.net/
> X Promoting good netiquette |http://triplethreatband.com/
> / \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ |http://myspace.com/mytriplethreatband
I heartily recomend the RNC. I have two in my studio, and they're
great. Very quiet little beasts as well!
Corey
Jim Carr
03-01-2007, 03:56 PM
"Jim" <askme@beforeyousend.com> wrote in message
news:12ue9uf9i7ftq6c@corp.supernews.com...
>> That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
>> range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a
>> more detailed explanation, see
>> www.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
>
> Technically correct. But you should know that guitarists often use them
> with increased output level. This results in a tighter range signal at a
> higher level, giving artificial sustain. That's how a lot of guitar
> players use them.
I do know that. They use make-up gain (almost everyone does with a
compressor), which affects the *entire* signal. The threshold is used as a
trigger to reduce again above a level. It does not lower the signal below
the threshold.
Jim Carr wrote:
> "Jim" <askme@beforeyousend.com> wrote in message
> news:12ue9uf9i7ftq6c@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>>>That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
>>>range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a
>>>more detailed explanation, see
>>>www.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
>>
>>Technically correct. But you should know that guitarists often use them
>>with increased output level. This results in a tighter range signal at a
>>higher level, giving artificial sustain. That's how a lot of guitar
>>players use them.
>
>
> I do know that. They use make-up gain (almost everyone does with a
> compressor), which affects the *entire* signal. The threshold is used as a
> trigger to reduce again above a level. It does not lower the signal below
> the threshold.
>
>
How about a limiter? I'm a guitarist. I also use a cheapo ART tube
Levelar that has a limiter function. It can even out "chicken pickin',"
for example (think Buck Owens finger style).
Brian Running
03-01-2007, 04:58 PM
> I heartily recomend the RNC. I have two in my studio, and they're
> great. Very quiet little beasts as well!
RNC is the best compressor I've used. Unfortunately, I've done
something to it, it's distorted when in the "Super Nice" mode. I may be
able to report on the quality of FMR's repair services soon...
Neil N
03-01-2007, 05:03 PM
On Mar 1, 2:44 pm, "coreybenson" <coreyben...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I heartily recomend the RNC. I have two in my studio, and they're
> great. Very quiet little beasts as well!
>
I have yet to try the RNC, I know I really should.
But for my live playing rig I have used the ART levelar now for many
years, and I find it works really well.
I think they're discontinued now, you can nab one up off Ebay for a
steal.
FWIW, I don't use mine to control dynamics between finger style and
slap, I do find that balance "in my fingers".
I do use it occasionally when I play ballad style bass parts, the
thick and warm ones. The comp in that case allows a nice attack to
point the beginning of the note, and then the controlled sustain of
the note follows with that big phat consistent bass that everyone in
the band hangs their clothes on.
ptooner
03-01-2007, 05:23 PM
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:S7HFh.2131$tv6.2020@newssvr19.news.prodigy.ne t...
>> I heartily recomend the RNC. I have two in my studio, and they're
>> great. Very quiet little beasts as well!
>
> RNC is the best compressor I've used. Unfortunately, I've done something
> to it, it's distorted when in the "Super Nice" mode. I may be able to
> report on the quality of FMR's repair services soon...
I currently use a Behringer compressor pedal (forget the model) anytime I'm
going to send a signal to the main board to cut down on peaks and level out
the gain a bit - especially when I'm recording. I use two Alesis Nano comps
in my rack for vocals. In the vocal use, I can run higher mike gain without
worrying as much about feedback. That's let's me move my head more relative
to the mike without losing pickup. I started that when I was playing more
keyboard and it was more difficult to stay right behind the mike.
Gerry
Jim Carr
03-01-2007, 05:27 PM
"Jim Carr" <newsgroups@azwebpages.com> wrote in message
news:HdGFh.31536$OY.4088@newsfe20.lga...
> "Jim" <askme@beforeyousend.com> wrote in message
> news:12ue9uf9i7ftq6c@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>> That's not correct. A compressor is a device that decreases the dynamic
>>> range of a signal by lowering the gain above a certain threshold. For a
>>> more detailed explanation, see
>>> www.azwebpages.com/bass/basscompression.htm
>>
>> Technically correct. But you should know that guitarists often use them
>> with increased output level. This results in a tighter range signal at a
>> higher level, giving artificial sustain. That's how a lot of guitar
>> players use them.
>
> I do know that. They use make-up gain (almost everyone does with a
> compressor), which affects the *entire* signal. The threshold is used as a
> trigger to reduce again above a level. It does not lower the signal below
> the threshold.
While that last sentence is true, what I mean to say was that it does not
raise the signals below the threshold in any special way. A compressor
squashes the signal above the threshold. The signal below the threshold is
left untouched. If you played in such a way that the signal never crossed
the threshold, the dynamics would be left intact. Suppose the signal exceeds
the threshold by 4dB and your ratio is 4:1. The compressor will attenuate
that signal so that it's only 1dB above the threshold.
Compressors come equipped with makeup gain which means you can boost the
entire signal. You don't have to use the makeup gain, but as a practical
matter that's what is usually done. If you didn't use it, you could add the
gain at a later stage. It's important to think of the makeup gain as a
separate element so that you get a good understanding of what the compressor
itself is actually doing.
What some people think is that a compressor raises the signal below the
threshold. It doesn't work that way. Suppose you had a line where some of
the notes were above -10dB and some were below. Set the threshold to -10dB
and the ratio to 2:1 with no makeup gain. A note at -16dB is still -16dB. A
note at -6dB will be affected so that it's only -8dB. Softer notes are
unaffected by compression.
Let's suppose now that you add 6dB of makeup gain. The -16dB notes are now
at -10dB. At first blush it seems that the softer notes are now louder.
Well, you could have done that without the compressor just by adding more
gain. The louder note is now at -2dB. It's louder than it was before, but
not as loud as it would have been without the compressor.
This is the important difference. If you're using the compressor to make
softer notes louder, what you're really doing is making louder notes softer,
then bringing up the entire signal. In our example if you also had notes
at -24dB, they would still be 8dB softer than your -16dB notes even after
the makeup gain. By contrast a -2dB note would only be 2dB louder than
the -6dB note because of the compression. Relatively speaking you have less
in the way of dynamics above the threshold compared to below the threshold.
Also the difference between your softest note and the loudest note above the
threshold is smaller. If none of the notes exceed the threshold, you've done
nothing but add some additional gain.
Using a compressor for sustain is in effect making an "artificial" sustain.
In an unmodified signal such as plucking a string, you have a peak followed
by the signal dropping off rather quickly. As time goes on the signal drops
off more and more slowly:
http://www.carlmartin.com/Images/comp%20manuel%20fig1.gif
When you use a compressor to create sustain, you end up lopping off much of
the attack. The steep drop-off in level is no longer so steep. This is a
somewhat extreme version of what it might look like:
http://www.carlmartin.com/Images/comp%20manuel%20fig%209.gif. You can adjust
the attack time of the compressor to let some of the transient through, but
you get the idea.
You don't have to know all this. If you twiddle some knobs and get the sound
you want, that's great. However, if you don't know what's going on, you
might find yourself fighting the compressor while you're playing. If you
think of it as affecting only softer notes, you might find yourself plucking
harder and harder wondering why it's not getting as loud as you expect.
ptooner
03-01-2007, 05:28 PM
"Neil N" <daltonmusic@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1172783013.876286.5690@h3g2000cwc.googlegroup s.com...
> On Mar 1, 2:44 pm, "coreybenson" <coreyben...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I heartily recomend the RNC. I have two in my studio, and they're
>> great. Very quiet little beasts as well!
>>
>
> I have yet to try the RNC, I know I really should.
>
> But for my live playing rig I have used the ART levelar now for many
> years, and I find it works really well.
>
> I think they're discontinued now, you can nab one up off Ebay for a
> steal.
>
> FWIW, I don't use mine to control dynamics between finger style and
> slap, I do find that balance "in my fingers".
>
> I do use it occasionally when I play ballad style bass parts, the
> thick and warm ones. The comp in that case allows a nice attack to
> point the beginning of the note, and then the controlled sustain of
> the note follows with that big phat consistent bass that everyone in
> the band hangs their clothes on.
>
>
The great majority of bass combo amps have built in compressors. When I'm
running just to one of my combo amps I don't use an external compressor. On
some cases where I run just to the sound board I use a small compressor
pedal.
Gerry
Brian Running
03-01-2007, 05:35 PM
> I currently use a Behringer compressor pedal (forget the model) anytime I'm
> going to send a signal to the main board to cut down on peaks and level out
> the gain a bit - especially when I'm recording. I use two Alesis Nano comps
> in my rack for vocals.
Gerry, if you're used to using Behringer and Alesis compressors (Both of
which I have previously used -- and still own), you have got to treat
yourself to an RNC. You will be amazed. I got mine for $175 a few
years ago, and I think they're still in that range. Gotta get one!
Neil N
03-01-2007, 05:37 PM
On Mar 1, 4:23 pm, "ptooner" <nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> In the vocal use, I can run higher mike gain without
> worrying as much about feedback.
Totally counterintuitive to me. Perhaps if you sing into that
compressed mic all the time, but when you stop singing, depending on
the gain reduction dialed in your mic will be more inclined to
feedback, not less.
>That's let's me move my head more relative
> to the mike without losing pickup.
That I understand.
Jim Carr
03-01-2007, 05:38 PM
"Jim" <askme@beforeyousend.com> wrote in message
news:12uefb6cla2nb61@corp.supernews.com...
> How about a limiter? I'm a guitarist. I also use a cheapo ART tube
> Levelar that has a limiter function. It can even out "chicken pickin',"
> for example (think Buck Owens finger style).
If you set the ratio on the compressor high enough, it can function as a
limiter.
Think of things as going in slow motion with somebody sitting with his hand
on the volume control. You tell the guy, "I don't want anything louder
than -4dB. Period." When the signal goes above -4dB, the guy turns down the
volume accordingly so it never exceeds that level.
With a compressor you tell the guy, "When the signal goes above -4dB, I want
you to reduce the volume, but not completely. So, for every 2dB above that
level, turn the volume down so that it only goes up 1dB." So when a 0dB
signal comes through, the guy turns down the volume a little bit so that it
sits at -2dB.
If you told the compressor guy, "For every 2dB above the threshold, turn
down the volume so that there's only a 0.1dB increase" he would in effect be
acting like a limiter. You'd have to go *way* above the threshold in order
for anybody to hear any increase in volume.
This simple example ignores things like the attack and release times.
ptooner
03-01-2007, 05:41 PM
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX.net> wrote in message
news:0HHFh.579$uo3.136@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net. ..
>> I currently use a Behringer compressor pedal (forget the model) anytime
>> I'm going to send a signal to the main board to cut down on peaks and
>> level out the gain a bit - especially when I'm recording. I use two
>> Alesis Nano comps in my rack for vocals.
>
> Gerry, if you're used to using Behringer and Alesis compressors (Both of
> which I have previously used -- and still own), you have got to treat
> yourself to an RNC. You will be amazed. I got mine for $175 a few years
> ago, and I think they're still in that range. Gotta get one!
I have always heard great things about those, but never tried one. Maybe
next time I'm in the market. I'll tell you the alesis works great.
Gerry
Brian Running
03-01-2007, 05:55 PM
> next time I'm in the market. I'll tell you the alesis works great.
The Alesis compressors control dynamics just fine. But, they also add
noise and odd artifacts -- you can hear more than just dynamics
compression going on. With the RNC, you can't even tell the things in
the signal chain, unless you look at your recording meters and see that
yeah, there's compression going on. It's very "transparent." You just
don't hear it working.
William Graham
03-01-2007, 06:30 PM
"RichCI" <richci@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172772101.361097.181190@31g2000cwt.googlegro ups.com...
> On Mar 1, 12:51 pm, "seawiks" <mns...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
>> Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
>> all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
>> switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
>> $250 US.
>
>
> Compressors and limiters (as well as gates) often come in one package
> as they work well together.
>
> Compressor - raises low levels up higher when they go below a
> threshold.
>
> Limiter - prevents signals from going over a threshold
>
> Gate - turns off the signal when it goes below a threshold and opens
> it again when the signal reaches up to that threshold
>
> By manipulating compression in conjunction with limiting, you a can
> "squeeze" the dynamic range of the signal so that it's never very
> quiet or very loud. Since gates open and close depending on signal
> level, they are best used before compression.
>
> As a bass player, a compressor/limiter can be useful for evening
> things out a bit but gating probably isn't very necessary unless you
> have an unusually noisy rig or are going for some sort of special
> effect.
>
>
I use the gate on mine to cut off the valve "clunk" when my trumpet valves
come back up.....It removes everything below a certain low frequency, which
is below what normally comes out of the trumpet anyway........
Greg Edwards
05-08-2007, 06:18 PM
"seawiks" <mns2nd@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1172771465.469430.245760@z35g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...
>
> I'm looking to add a compressor in the signal chain of my bass rack.
> Some of the them are compressor gates, compressor limiter, some are
> all 3, whats the difference ? I want to have better control when
> switching between fingering and slapping. I'm looking to spend around
> $250 US.
You may want to check out these reviews a guy over on talkbass put together.
Some are most are pedals, but there's a few rack units there too. Although
there's nothing to stop you putting a pedal in a rack tray.
http://www.ev-b.com/compressors.html
Greg
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.